My E46 323i using non-synthetic: sludge fest 2010!

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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I agree. I always hear "arguments" how BMW or Mercedes or Audi are unreliable. Like they have problems! Really? My friend took his A4 1.8T to some cheap fast oil change. Off course they were using some cheap mineral oil, and guess what, sludge fest after 70K. He blamed car, europeans etc. He said that was never problem with his 95 Camry! Really? He wants to drive Audi but to put $19.99 oil.
People are just plain stupid when it comes to cars, especially European cars!


Really agree, but here is the thing - A 1.8T has all these sludging issues (a friend of mine had one with over 190k on it that had no sludge, we kept 0w-40 M1 in it though) needs all this great care.

Well, I could go but a domestic or Japanese car and not have these issues.

...At least on the top-level view.

But it sure seems to me that when these things arise, it is primarily due to specific output. A 1.8T put out what? 100hp/L?

So that's going to change they situation compared to something with lower specific output. Sure seems to me that it was doable to prevent this back in 2004, if one used the right oil, and as more manufacturers are converging on high output engines, the oil specs are improving to reflect - much to the dismay of those with older, low specific output devices.

But my big issue is something like a 323i is NOT a high specific output engine. I doubt it is any more power dense than a camry or accord or malibu engine, and not necessarily run any harder.

So the blanket statement that euro cars need to be maintained at euro prices is a bit misleading, unless a real, sound basis for why this is relevant for every model and system is clearly spelled out.

Im not seeing why a 323i should be any different than a 2.5L camry in terms of maintenance and oil changes. And if done right, they both can be extended very far.

I would agree, except that BMW has more sophisticated engines regardless of output and HP per liter. I am from Europe, and 1.8T always required synthetic oil in Europe and I never heard of sludge issues in Europe with this motor or any other.
When I bought Passat 1.8T here in the US I found out about this issue.
BMW and Camry should not have same engines, because then BMW would not be BMW, it would be just another boring japanese car!


Im not saying that you are wrong. Im just saying that it is never really clearly explained why.

15k on an oil is bound to create degradation in oil of any type, especially basestocks susceptible to high oxidation. Sure is true.

But 15k OCIs aside, what makes the run of the mill european engine more sophisticated than a Japanese or Domestic engine? That is what Im getting at.

For its time, my M42 engine in my E30 was more sophisticated than many of its Japanese and domestic competitors. My N55 with DI and a twin scroll single body turbo is also more sophisticated. But for a run of the mill I6 engine, what is so much more sophisticated? Everyone has COP, everyone has variable valve timing. Specific outputs are roughly the same.

So what is it?

You cannot look at the engines by the sheer number of HP or HP per one liter of displacement. It is the way it produces that power, what kind of turbos are used, etc, etc.
If VW requires VW 502.00 for 1.8T but Mazda for its V6 does not require any special oil then 5W30, then there is a good reason for that.
Generally, European engines are more economical (although that is questionable when it comes to VW 1.8T) with same amount of power. That requires different oils because of number of things.
People are just too lazy to look at their booklet and find out what they have to use. Once when [censored] happens then it is manufacturers fault.
 
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Originally Posted By: crrdvr6
BMW's have an oil service of 15K miles with BMW LL01 rated oil. You will be suprised how many people use dino in these cars for 15K miles. I bought my 2001 330Ci new, the engine is spotless and the car has been very reliable. Over the years I've realized people who complain about BMW's reliablity are either ignorant when it comes to maintaining the car or cheap.


Precisely. My Club Sport and X3 both have 130,000 miles on the clock and they have cost less to maintain and required fewer non-scheduled repairs than my 100,000 mile Mazdaspeed.
 
Originally Posted By: crrdvr6
It's not an issue of any motor being more sophisticated then the other. The issue is sludge developing due to inadequate oil changes and/or using the wrong oil for the application. 15K mile oil changes combined with a motor designed to run hot for improved efficiency is a recipe for disaster in the hands of an ignorant and/or cheap owner. 15K mile oil changes with LL01 oil, (normal driving conditions), along with refreshing the cooling system every 65K miles will keep the car and owner happy.


So youre saying that the engines run hotter?

I know my N55 does, but do the run of the mill I6 engines? I doubt it. Would like numerial evidence that it runs hotter than a honda - that would be great info!
 
I have no info on a Honda. Never owned one in my life. E46 run 188-207°F normal everyday driving. You don't think BMW cooling systems run hotter then normal, fine. At ~65K miles you'll be one of the people complaining about BMW's reliability.
 
Originally Posted By: crrdvr6
I have no info on a Honda. Never owned one in my life. E46 run 188-207°F normal everyday driving. You don't think BMW cooling systems run hotter then normal, fine. At ~65K miles you'll be one of the people complaining about BMW's reliability.


Considering that I daily drive a 21 year old BMW with 140k+ on the original cooling system (change the coolant of course), Im NOT complaining, and i have a bit of experience. I maintain it well and it has done just like any other vehicle, which is exactly my point.

Again, my N55 will see 230+F water temp and 250F oil temperatures regularly. That's a hot engine, for sure.

But an N55 is not a "normal" engine. Again, what specifically is running hotter or more extreme in, say, an N52 engine (producing 85.5 hp/L of displacement, 1.24 hp per kilogram with the latest version), compared to say, the Honda J37A4, which produces 83.2 hp/L or the toyota 2GR-FSE which produces 87.1 hp/L and 1.75hp/kg.

My point again is that Im not seeing a compelling argument to justify it compared to other six-cylinder engines, besides the 15k mile OCI argument. All the handwaving about power density and whatnot CAN manifest itself, as is evidenced in my N55. But for a NA 6 cyl, Im not seeing any reason why the engines are harder on the oil.
 
I don't know what 21 year old BMW you drive, but I LOVE old BMW's. E30 M3 is my dream car. My whole argument is that the sludge is brought about by 15K mile oil changes with the wrong oil. My corrado has done track days with those temps, water and oil, and has been problem free once I stay on top of it.
 
Originally Posted By: crrdvr6
I don't know what 21 year old BMW you drive, but I LOVE old BMW's. E30 M3 is my dream car. My whole argument is that the sludge is brought about by 15K mile oil changes with the wrong oil. My corrado has done track days with those temps, water and oil, and has been problem free once I stay on top of it.


I drive an E30, a 91 318i. That has the M42 engine which was very advanced for its time.

Runs beautifully. Love the car, thus why I bought a 135i last year to suppliment it.

But my whole point from the start is that some say that european engines are so much more advanced, run so much hotter, etc.

I say, give me proof that this is the case compared to an equivalent Japanese engine. Ill bet it iabsolutely is the case in my N55, but for a non-turbo regular engine is it? That's the point of my question. I have substantial doubts.

So where I was getting at is that it is indeed entirely the 15k OCI with poor decisions being made, not that there is some magic operational difference in most euro engines.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

I drive an E30, a 91 318i. That has the M42 engine which was very advanced for its time.

Runs beautifully. Love my car, thus why I bought a 135i last year to suppliment it.


I love my 130K mile 1995 ti, at the last Inspection I my service adviser reported that the injector adaptation values were dead center. Coincidentally, my dealer just took a 2011 135i M Sport in trade- and I'm giving it a hard look...
 
Originally Posted By: crrdvr6
I have no info on a Honda. Never owned one in my life. E46 run 188-207°F normal everyday driving. You don't think BMW cooling systems run hotter then normal, fine. At ~65K miles you'll be one of the people complaining about BMW's reliability.


For that matter, GM LS V8s thermostats don't open until 190 degrees and the fans don't engage until 230. To kick both fans you are pushing close to 250! I re-tuned the fans to engage at 210 and 225 which is still up there.

That being said I still think this is down to negligence. I'm sure there are plenty of people who run dino in Corvettes too. Most people who don't have interest in a car beyond the badge cheap out on maintenance.
 
Dino and Diesel oils are great oils.

The problem with this picture is MAYBE the prior owner never changed the oil, or possibly this engine had a coolant leak. I've seen pictures of sludged up engines on luxury cars where the owner used synthetic but ran the OCI too long or had a coolant leak. Those pictures look the similar if not worse.

In order to be fair.....We don't know the whole history of this vehicle. There may have been problems with the head gasket.

I've seen plenty of pictures of engines, that have been run their whole lives on Dino or diesel, and they are spotless.
 
Originally Posted By: mongo161
Dino and Diesel oils are great oils.

The problem with this picture is MAYBE the prior owner never changed the oil, or possibly this engine had a coolant leak. I've seen pictures of sludged up engines on luxury cars where the owner used synthetic but ran the OCI too long or had a coolant leak. Those pictures look the similar if not worse.

In order to be fair.....We don't know the whole history of this vehicle. There may have been problems with the head gasket.

I've seen plenty of pictures of engines, that have been run their whole lives on Dino or diesel, and they are spotless.

Agree when it comes to diesel oils (syntheti ones like Shell Rotella T6).
Dino oil no way in high output cars like this Audi.
 
This thing still ran?!

Heh. Maybe that is evidence thicker oils are better. Run 5W-Asphalt and it'll make miracles.
 
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