TEST/ DEMO - the story on additives

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I still have some left over Lucas Oil Stabilizer to fix my oil-burning Saturn. I was almost going to put that stuff into my Talon's manual transmission, which requires GL-4 oil. Man, I am so glad that I saw this test. I guess I have to throw out the rest of Lucas stuff.

Thank you, Bob
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[ January 18, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: TurboFrog ]
 
Bob--I'll have to admit, seeing is believing. I actually have this in my 1992 GMC Sonoma's differential right now at probably around 25%. I will definitely be draining this stuff out and replacing with nothing but 80/90 gear oil. My truck which I've owned since new is thanking you. This really is some good work. Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the comments. Quite honestly, I was really surprised as to who it frothed up after adding the lucas but do see how it would cause that, but when putting in additives, you can not really tell for sure just how it may react on different lubricants. Definitely shows how critical additive packages are balanced and the least bit of home chemistry can alter the lubricant to extremes.
 
Nice post Bob. I didnt need much coaxing to not use additives. I have believed for years that they are by and large crap.
 
I have no idea. I really didn't want to waste the schaeffers gear oil with that because the schaeffers gear oil is already designed with the climbing additive in it already so it doesn't need it. One of the other things I liked was the fact it had very minimal air trapped in it as well.
 
quote:

Originally posted by blano:
Nice post Bob. I didnt need much coaxing to not use additives. I have believed for years that they are by and large crap.

Thanks Bill, There is some good advantages to additives but very few. It's the fact that oil chemistries are a science and many hours and lots of $$$ goes into blending oil and to think that additive makers can come out with something that works in improving the quality of an oil without disturbing the existing oil's chemistry is definatly not thinking ahead very well. Top that with the improper balance and adding more than stated by the oil additive instructions, just produces more problems.
 
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That one page says more than what we could debate in a several endless threads.
 
Bob, what you mention about chemistry clash is also a good reson not to mix differant oils to achieve your own "homebrew". It amazes me all the smarter than your average bear types that think they can gain something from this.
 
Bob, that reminded me of an info-mercial being done by "Mr Wizard".
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All kidding aside, that's a very good demonstration and took a lot of time and energy to set up. We appreciate it. Keep them coming.
 
As always Bobs tests are very interesting and thought provoking ! I love this kind of stuff !


Due to the fact that the EP adds in both products have not reached a temperature to be activated this may be seemingly inhibiting the Pennzoil product from reducing surface tension thus allowing aeration and foaming.

The Schaeffers product performs better in this test precisely because it has more silicone polymers or organic copolymers to reduce surface tension.
The Lucas add is a bright stock based add and has a very high surface tension which make the lube on the right foam even worse.



I would also like to see the Lucas additive used with the Schaeffers gear lube.


I would also like to see other brands of gear lubes used in this test. Similar weights compared.

Bob can you try a Pennzoil petroleum brand 80w-90 instead of their Syn 80w-140?

Heat both products prior to test?

I have been a big promoter of the general public sticking with a fully formulated product for safety's sake.

While experimenting non stop for racers to gain an edge and spending alot of time confirming compatibility before recommending a "brew".
 
The ELCA surfactant (that used in Schaeffer's oils) is some of the best wetting chemistry bar-none.

That's why I like the #132 supplement so much.

[ January 18, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
In this article at Noria, Noria Using oil analysis to control sludge and varnish they go into some detail on the causes of varnish and sludge.Of special interest they talk about Preasure induced thermal degradation,where entrained air in lubricants get compressed and implode(at high temperature),resulting in a sub micron carbon particle where the air bubble once was,I would think this would be a major factor in the lifespan of a gearlube that was foaming like this.
 
Since Redline gear oils are recommended here quite a bit, would be nice to see a comparison to their 75w90 (also because thats what I'm using
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Several points I'd like to make here...

Terry, The heating up process will not help this as I can tell you from the truck center they have been seeing drivers come in with air bubbled gear oil and had no idea why. You must remember that we want to look at this when cold and starting out because that's when the lubricant really needs to be walking up the gears when first moving a vehicle during long drain periods. This machine appears to warm up the oil slightly because it takes it approx 5-10 mins before it really starts to drop the adheasion property and goes into normal gear oil mode. The thing about the putting in Lucas was after both gear oils had time to run for a bit and demonstrated the oils ability/lack of ability to hold back the bubbles.

Once we determined that the oil wasn't going to climb without any assistance, we then started the machine, left at a set speed and added just enough to cause the oil to climb. It was at that point we stopped adding some in so not to over dose it.

So, IMO, Based on my service centers comments about driver complaints of higher heat on rearend temps and air bubbles in the oil when dropped out of the unit, I'd say heat doesn't appear to be much of any help for this issue.

I will be trying it with reg dino soon, but on this test, I was trying it out where these guys were running in real life situations and the full synth was their biggest seller and appeared to be their best at the time of this.

I did try it in the schaeffers 80w90 gear oil just to see how it handled the extra adheasion, and the results appear to be a little more but not even close to what the penz did. Here is a pic I took of this.

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As you can see, it is very minut but still a little does show up. This is where the additive chemistry in schaeffers has a much higher degree of tolerance to the adheasion factor of Lucas compared to the other gear oil.

I will shortly be trying Lucas with motor oils, particularly diesel oils for PSD's where the injectors rely on oil that isn't foaming and if adding this to a diesel motor oil will cause it to foam, I suspect it would really mess up the injector system on thos powerstrokes. More to come later on this.


Toy, I would really like to get my hands on a qt of redline gear oil. None around here that I can find. That is the only gear oil I have heard nothing but good about and I wonder just how well it does do in climbing and ariation. I know it has moly as schaeffers does, so I don't know how it will do in climbing and air bubbles.



This test demonstrates mainly on how detrimental oil additives can be to a good additive package in a oil.
 
I wonder it there a way to determine what each side is using in terms of load. e.g. What side is getting the best efficiency in all these test?

Just curious if you thought of tracking that??

btw
I am a firm believer in not using additives.

[ January 19, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 
Bob, outstanding work!

I told other forum readers (crownvic.net) about the 267 and i checked the specs myself. It appears to be closer to a 75W-140 or a 80W-140 than any other 75W/80W-90, synthetic or otherwise.

I wonder if you could do similar tests with Redline and Royal Purple?

Seeing is definitely believing!
 
Mike, To answer your question on load etc...

This machine has one variable speed motor which is attached to the smallest gear on the nearest box, which has a double pulley so to run another oring to the other small gear. If any one of them would be under load over the other ,I'd imagine it would be the inner gear box as it gets driven by the motor and transfers that to the other gear.

Metro, Redline and RP would be interesting to see. I have not seen either around here at all. Anywone wants to send me any, I'll put it on there.
 
I just took Delo400 15w40 and tried this little test.. The results, Well, go back and look at the continuation I attached to the bottom of the gear oil test. Let me know what you think about lucas and motor oils....
 
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