1962 327 300 hp had original shell and filter cartridge. Approx 1998 Fram had the K-98A oil filter adaptor kit so a PH 13 spin-on could be used. I've depleted my supply of PH-13 and want to use the WIX. The PH-13 does NOT have the anti-drain back valve. So, I should use the WIX 51061 which also does NOT have the anti drain back valve. Correct? I know what the valve does, so I am thinking that when the oil filter is vertical, there is not any drain back anyway, so, is that correct? the WIX website shows the 51060 as having the valve. Thanks for any help.
Anti Drain Back Valve or Not?
- Thread starter PistonPete
- Start date
- Status
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Having the filter contents at pan level or below helps.
Thanks to all for the lightning fast replys at warp speed! Now I can finish what I started.
Pistol Pete
Pistol Pete
why would any car maker, make the oil fiter NOT FACING, ( up ) down? if nothing eles to make it better for there OWN mechs?
Originally Posted By: Warstud
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Huh !
That's correct. On Chevy engines of that era the filter is facing straight up so no need for a ADBV. If a ADBV is in the new filter it doesn't matter.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Huh !
That's correct. On Chevy engines of that era the filter is facing straight up so no need for a ADBV. If a ADBV is in the new filter it doesn't matter.
Last edited:
Yep. My '62 Buick has the filter mounted straight up as well.
Originally Posted By: Warstud
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Huh !
If the highest pressure lubricated point in the engine is above the static oil level, then it needs an anti drain back valve, pure and simple
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Huh !
If the highest pressure lubricated point in the engine is above the static oil level, then it needs an anti drain back valve, pure and simple
take an empty soda bottle. Fill with water.
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
take an empty soda bottle. Fill with water.
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
I am going to respectfully disagree, Steve. However, I'm presuming I'm understanding the intent of your example, and I think you've missed the mark. I will leave the door open, however, to the fact that I might be misunderstanding how you intended to use the example. If I'm misunderstanding your example, then I apologize in advance, wholeheartedly.
I believe your example does not apply to an engine lube system. Here's why ...
In your example, the bottle is a closed container with only one way in/out. The reason the water does not drain is because the water will draw a vacuum agaist the bottom of the bottle ("bottom" when the bottle is inverted is bottom side up). Actually, a small amount of water will move out which would equal the weight of the water vs. the force of the vacuum, but it's probably negligible for the example.
An engine, however, does NOT have a closed container sytsem. The oil, as it is allowed to drain back, all drains at atmospheric pressure. A filter without an ADBV has no ability to stop the capillary action of gravity drawing down the oil, and pulling it out of the filter, regardless of how it's oriented. It also cannot stop oil pushing it's way down from above the filter.
The ADBV is a check-valve, pure and simple. It stops the vacuum draw of lube trying to leave when below it's level, and it traps the oil above it from forcing it's way down. An ADBV in a filter of a typical engine lube system is open to atmospheric pressure on both ends (the pan at the bottom and the valve train at the top) so the bottle example does not apply. In short, the oil is at atmoshperic pressure both above and below the filter; that bottle example is completely different.
In fact, the bottle example would certainly fail if you poked a hole in the bottom of the bottle (top of the container when inverted) and empty the bottle in short order, UNLESS you place a check-valve at the mouth of the bottle (bottom of the container when inverted). When you subject the bottle example to the same atmospheric conditions as an engine sees, the example fails.
Where I could find agreement with your example is how the bottle example can mimic the lower half of the ADBV sytsem once the oil draws down a small amount and pulls a vacuum against the underside of the ADBV. But the OVERALL example is poor, because it ignores the atmospheric conditions on the top side of the ADBV.
Now, all that aside - the OP certainly can use a filter with an ADBV. An ADBV is a check valve and nothing else. It will flow in the desired direction every bit as well as a filter without one. There is no risk whatsoever in using a filter with an ADBV. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain.
(P.S. - If someone asks me to better define my objection and I don't answer, it's because I'm leaving for vacation for a week. I'll try to "catch up" when I return).
take an empty soda bottle. Fill with water.
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
I am going to respectfully disagree, Steve. However, I'm presuming I'm understanding the intent of your example, and I think you've missed the mark. I will leave the door open, however, to the fact that I might be misunderstanding how you intended to use the example. If I'm misunderstanding your example, then I apologize in advance, wholeheartedly.
I believe your example does not apply to an engine lube system. Here's why ...
In your example, the bottle is a closed container with only one way in/out. The reason the water does not drain is because the water will draw a vacuum agaist the bottom of the bottle ("bottom" when the bottle is inverted is bottom side up). Actually, a small amount of water will move out which would equal the weight of the water vs. the force of the vacuum, but it's probably negligible for the example.
An engine, however, does NOT have a closed container sytsem. The oil, as it is allowed to drain back, all drains at atmospheric pressure. A filter without an ADBV has no ability to stop the capillary action of gravity drawing down the oil, and pulling it out of the filter, regardless of how it's oriented. It also cannot stop oil pushing it's way down from above the filter.
The ADBV is a check-valve, pure and simple. It stops the vacuum draw of lube trying to leave when below it's level, and it traps the oil above it from forcing it's way down. An ADBV in a filter of a typical engine lube system is open to atmospheric pressure on both ends (the pan at the bottom and the valve train at the top) so the bottle example does not apply. In short, the oil is at atmoshperic pressure both above and below the filter; that bottle example is completely different.
In fact, the bottle example would certainly fail if you poked a hole in the bottom of the bottle (top of the container when inverted) and empty the bottle in short order, UNLESS you place a check-valve at the mouth of the bottle (bottom of the container when inverted). When you subject the bottle example to the same atmospheric conditions as an engine sees, the example fails.
Where I could find agreement with your example is how the bottle example can mimic the lower half of the ADBV sytsem once the oil draws down a small amount and pulls a vacuum against the underside of the ADBV. But the OVERALL example is poor, because it ignores the atmospheric conditions on the top side of the ADBV.
Now, all that aside - the OP certainly can use a filter with an ADBV. An ADBV is a check valve and nothing else. It will flow in the desired direction every bit as well as a filter without one. There is no risk whatsoever in using a filter with an ADBV. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain.
(P.S. - If someone asks me to better define my objection and I don't answer, it's because I'm leaving for vacation for a week. I'll try to "catch up" when I return).
Last edited:
In other words, if the filter is mounted upside down, sideways or base down the check valve (ADBV) will be effective, regardless of filter orientation, to prevent mains drainback. You know, all that oil that comes out of the mounting plate when you remove a filter with an effective ADBV. Now if the filter is mounted above the mains drill in the block the adbv will not be affective as entrained air accumulation from foaming will "migrate" to the top of the "engine plumbing" through the filter outlet and the filter will empty, regardless of adbv or not.
My New Subaru has a inverted spin-on filter at the top of the engine and it has an ADBV - but the filter will empty in under an hour. When I do an OC, the filter is indeed empty when I remove it after draining. The can really shouldnt be empty++ - but it is - so I suppose it really should be empty
++ The oil in it proper, and all the oil in the drills under it that are above any "openings"
++ The oil in it proper, and all the oil in the drills under it that are above any "openings"
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My New Subaru has a inverted spin-on filter at the top of the engine and it has an ADBV - but the filter will empty in under an hour. When I do an OC, the filter is indeed empty when I remove it after draining. I really shouldnt be empty++ - but it is - so I suppose it really should be empty
++ The oil in it proper, and all the oil in the drills under it that are above any "openings"
Is that with the Subaru filter? I use a PureOne that is vertical base down, and the silicone ADBV holds oil for weeks. I did and ADBV test on another PureOne with great results, showing they hold oil very well.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...807#Post2042807
My New Subaru has a inverted spin-on filter at the top of the engine and it has an ADBV - but the filter will empty in under an hour. When I do an OC, the filter is indeed empty when I remove it after draining. I really shouldnt be empty++ - but it is - so I suppose it really should be empty
++ The oil in it proper, and all the oil in the drills under it that are above any "openings"
Is that with the Subaru filter? I use a PureOne that is vertical base down, and the silicone ADBV holds oil for weeks. I did and ADBV test on another PureOne with great results, showing they hold oil very well.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...807#Post2042807
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
take an empty soda bottle. Fill with water.
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
Take an empty soda bottle, and two pieces of hose.
place the hoses so that one is sticking say a foot above the bottle, and the other, out of the neck, and back down to say 6" below the bottom of the bottle.
We'll call hose 1 the oil gallery, and hose 2 the pick-up.
Fill the lot with water, and watch what happens...hose 1, the gallery empties.
bottle (filter) syphons down to the level that hose 2 penetrates, so down to the level of the threaded nipple for the filter mount.
Not as empty as the inverted filter, but it still drains back.
take an empty soda bottle. Fill with water.
Now invert that bottle in a pail of water. Pull it out right up to the tip of the neck without pulling it all the way out of the water.
No water comes out of the soda bottle.
Anyone get it?
Take an empty soda bottle, and two pieces of hose.
place the hoses so that one is sticking say a foot above the bottle, and the other, out of the neck, and back down to say 6" below the bottom of the bottle.
We'll call hose 1 the oil gallery, and hose 2 the pick-up.
Fill the lot with water, and watch what happens...hose 1, the gallery empties.
bottle (filter) syphons down to the level that hose 2 penetrates, so down to the level of the threaded nipple for the filter mount.
Not as empty as the inverted filter, but it still drains back.
The point I was making is that the FILTER IS FULL when it is holes up.
Of course the rest of the gallery is drained back down. I seriously doubt that any adbv can stop that for more than a couple of hours or so.
My personal observations lead me to believe that the best you can hope for is that the filter is full when the engine is started. With many designs, not all to be sure, there are a lot of passages so oil is coming back down no matter your ADBV.
Of course the rest of the gallery is drained back down. I seriously doubt that any adbv can stop that for more than a couple of hours or so.
My personal observations lead me to believe that the best you can hope for is that the filter is full when the engine is started. With many designs, not all to be sure, there are a lot of passages so oil is coming back down no matter your ADBV.
Last edited:
As ARCO mentioned, aside from orientation, it's location (relative height to the oil pan) will make a difference. All the Chevy SB engines (when they had a spin on filter) had the filter near the bottom of the engine, thread end up. No ADBV was specified. The Wix cross that I used for hundreds of oil changes on the Chevys had no ADBV, either.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Correct.
Filter Orientation does not affect if the adbv is effective or not. Its a one way valve in the plumbing.
Correct.
- Status
