DPF is gone, should I change my oil type?

[MARTNT]

Hi, we have a 2007 BMW 325D (3L), as the DPF and CAT have been removed would I benefit from not using low/ash DPF oils??, Over here most people run Castrol Edge 5w30 or Mobile 1 ESP 5w30, both low ash oils and BMW LL04. I have been looking at standard oil like Valvoline synpower 5w30 or synpower mkl 5w30??, I did speek to someone at valvoline and Silkoline but to cover themselves they said still run low ash BMW LL04 oil even though I don't need it.

Any help and advice will be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance, Martin.

 

[m37charlie]

Did your car have SCR (AdBlue)? if the answer is no, or if you have successfully removed it, you are free to use higher ash/higher Zn/P oils without problem. If I were fortunate enough to be in your situation, I'd use Mobil 1 0W40.
Did you/do you have EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)?
How did you do this with respect to the electronics?
I have a 2009 X5 35d with EGR/DPF/SCR that I dearly would like to delete.

Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Did your car have SCR (AdBlue)? if the answer is no, or if you have successfully removed it, you are free to use higher ash/higher Zn/P oils without problem. If I were fortunate enough to be in your situation, I'd use Mobil 1 0W40.
Did you/do you have EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)?
How did you do this with respect to the electronics?
I have a 2009 X5 35d with EGR/DPF/SCR that I dearly would like to delete.

Charlie
Hi, thanks for the reply, I do still have the EGR connected and no AdBlue, you can remove it but was recomended not to. The EGR gases go through a cooling water heat exchanger and they alow the engine to warm up quicker thus giving better mpg. There is a company over here that does a DPF removal pipe, you still fit the sensors but they delete them in the software. Do oils with a higher ash/higher Zn/P give the engine more protection??

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

BMW will begin adding Urea SCR in the next year or sooner in order to meet new EU emissions.

 

[MARTNT]

Is there any side effects of using low ash oil over standard synthetic??, I spoke to BMW parts today and they now only stock BMW LL04 oil the workshop, if a 15 year old BMW comes in for a service it will be geting that oil.

 

[The motor guy]

You can't even find CI-4 plus oils in the us. We only have CJ-4 is supposed to have greater wear protection than CI-4plus.

 

[bullwinkle]

If you can get Valvoline Premium Blue Classic in the UK-that is a CI-4+ higher TBN oil. How much sulfur is in the diesel fuel over there? If you have the same ULSD we have here in the USA-there probably won't be a big difference between CI & CJ-4 oil life-and the CJ disperses soot better.

 

[Texan4Life]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you can get Valvoline Premium Blue Classic in the UK-that is a CI-4+ higher TBN oil. How much sulfur is in the diesel fuel over there? If you have the same ULSD we have here in the USA-there probably won't be a big difference between CI & CJ-4 oil life-and the CJ disperses soot better.


+1 i would stick with CI-4/CJ-4 HDEO

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you can get Valvoline Premium Blue Classic in the UK-that is a CI-4+ higher TBN oil. How much sulfur is in the diesel fuel over there? If you have the same ULSD we have here in the USA-there probably won't be a big difference between CI & CJ-4 oil life-and the CJ disperses soot better.
As far as I know we do have ULSD but I don't know what the ppm are. One thing I do know is there is alot of high mileage Diesel BMW's over here that have only used low ash LL04.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you can get Valvoline Premium Blue Classic in the UK-that is a CI-4+ higher TBN oil. How much sulfur is in the diesel fuel over there? If you have the same ULSD we have here in the USA-there probably won't be a big difference between CI & CJ-4 oil life-and the CJ disperses soot better.


+1 i would stick with CI-4/CJ-4 HDEO


I would NOT use a CI4/CJ4 HDEO 15W40 in a BMW car diesel. If you look at the specs for LL01 using BMW engines, there are many 0W40, 5W40, and 0-5W30s that meet it. As stated Mobil 1 0W40 is my favorite but there are many other good oils available in the UK and Europe in that category.
Why sacrifice fuel economy for nothing, and why not use an oil that the mfg recommends for non DPF versions of your motor?
Why use an oil designed for slow turning diesels that are in heavy trucks and 6L US pickups?
Incidentally Euro diesel fuel has 10ppm sulfur, vs US limit of 15ppm.
The higher detergent level in higher ash oils allows longer oil change intervals with less danger of acidic corrosion caused by depletion of alkalinity in the oil.

Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you can get Valvoline Premium Blue Classic in the UK-that is a CI-4+ higher TBN oil. How much sulfur is in the diesel fuel over there? If you have the same ULSD we have here in the USA-there probably won't be a big difference between CI & CJ-4 oil life-and the CJ disperses soot better.


+1 i would stick with CI-4/CJ-4 HDEO


I would NOT use a CI4/CJ4 HDEO 15W40 in a BMW car diesel. If you look at the specs for LL01 using BMW engines, there are many 0W40, 5W40, and 0-5W30s that meet it. As stated Mobil 1 0W40 is my favorite but there are many other good oils available in the UK and Europe in that category.
Why sacrifice fuel economy for nothing, and why not use an oil that the mfg recommends for non DPF versions of your motor?
Why use an oil designed for slow turning diesels that are in heavy trucks and 6L US pickups?
Incidentally Euro diesel fuel has 10ppm sulfur, vs US limit of 15ppm.
The higher detergent level in higher ash oils allows longer oil change intervals with less danger of acidic corrosion caused by depletion of alkalinity in the oil.

Charlie
Hi, thanks for your reply. BMW UK now recomends LLo4 for all there diesels with a DPF or not, even most of the motor factors over here only stock LL04 for BMW's as they can all take it. If I do my oil changes at 10K how do you rate Castrol Edge 5w30 or Mobile 1 ESP 5w30??, BMW say you can do 20K with them oils??

 

[m37charlie]

The "TBN" rating (total base capacity) measures the alkaline reserve of an oil, i.e. its' ability to neutralize acidity. Even though your fuel is ultra low sulfur, EGR puts nitric/nitrous acid ( combustion product of N2 and O2 out of the air) back into the oil and with the ESP type (LL04) oils TBN is only ~6.4. By comparison Mobil 1 0W40 is 11.8, nearly double. Oil is usually "done" when TBN drops to about 2-3. Otherwise, corrosion rates will increase measurably.
Most of the "low" nature of low ash oils (low SAPS) is a decreased amount of organometallic detergent, i.e. Ca and Mg sulfonate and phenate. These clean deposits but also neutralize acids. ZDDP (zinc dithiodialkyl phosphate), a major antiwear and also antioxidant additive, is also decreased but only about 25-30%, not 50% like in the case of the detergents.
Nobody has presented me convincing evidence why low SAPS oils (like LL04) are any better than conventional formulations like Mobil 1 0W40, and in my humble opinion if long OCIs are desired then low SAPS oils are to be avoided if possible. I have done oil analyses on my X5 35d proving that LL04 oil deteriorates quite quickly as far as TBN loss. And since you have removed the catalyst (damaged by higher P levels) and DPF (fills up quicker with unburnable ash with higher detergent levels), I would use a "legacy" oil rather than the low SAPS.
The dealers are in my opinion just covering themselves by recommending LL04 to you; in my experience, very few dealership personnel have any substantial knowledge about oils and for that matter not much understanding of how the emission control system works.
I think 10K miles might barely be OK in a 325d that burns less fuel than my X5 with LL04, but 20K miles definitely not. With my new oil (delvac 1 LE 5W30, TBN 12.6) I might be able to do 20K mi in the X5. In the X5 I think the Castrol LL04 was done at 7-8K mi.

Charlie

 

[m37charlie]

Is this a kit one can buy?
Hopefully, they will come out with a similar setup for AdBlu equipped vehicles when Euro 6 comes into effect in 1-2 years, then it will be the same system as we have now in the US.
EGR may make the car warm up faster but the soot that goes back into the cylinder causes a lot of wear, puts soot into the oil much faster; and I think a good tuner could improve economy with EGR blocked. Extra cool fresh air is very good for complete diesel combustion; EGR actually increases soot production which is why the DPF is needed with the EGR in place.
And beware: on the X5 I've had the EGR cooler fail, replaced under warranty with an "improved" part. It is subject to tremendous thermal stress.

Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Is this a kit one can buy?
Hopefully, they will come out with a similar setup for AdBlu equipped vehicles when Euro 6 comes into effect in 1-2 years, then it will be the same system as we have now in the US.
EGR may make the car warm up faster but the soot that goes back into the cylinder causes a lot of wear, puts soot into the oil much faster; and I think a good tuner could improve economy with EGR blocked. Extra cool fresh air is very good for complete diesel combustion; EGR actually increases soot production which is why the DPF is needed with the EGR in place.
And beware: on the X5 I've had the EGR cooler fail, replaced under warranty with an "improved" part. It is subject to tremendous thermal stress.

Charlie

Hi, this is the company that does the DPF removal pipes and software http://www.ecotune-scotland.co.uk/
Another quick question if I may, would a standard BMW LL01 legacy oil as you put it protect the engine any better than a regulary changed low saps oil??, the reason I ask is I do have 10L of Mobile 1 ESP 5w30 at home, I only got it the other day so could take it back for something else, the motor factors that supplied it also does BMW LL01 Valvoline, how do you rate there 5w30 synpower or synpower mxl??, or can't you get that oil where you are??

 

[Shannow]

Charlie's recommendation makes sense, as he's not recommending a full blown North American diesel spec oil.

Manufacturers outside the US market want other things happening to the soot, so specify less than the latest US diesel specs and a lot of the other Euro and Japanese stuff.

I reckon that with ULSD you'll be OK...I don't think you'll see TBN problem...M1 0W-40 will be even moreso.

However in my market, it's $100/5L, $150 for and oil change sans filter, so I use something not quite so "overly good"

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Stick with the M1 ESP since you have it and then switch to some LL01 if you want. You're running ULSD so I question how much of a benefit you'll gain by going LL01. In the UK does BMW recommend an OCI based on lesser of 1 yr or the CBS indicator?

For the record Charlie and I have a diffent opinion regarding the significance of TAN levels found in BMW diesels at the time the CBS states to change the oil.

 

[m37charlie]

Yes, BMWTurboDzl and I have a civilized disagreement.
I will have more data in a week or 2. I am changing my oil today in the X5 with a sump full of Delvac 1 LE, TBN = 12.6. We will see if the Fe/Al levels have dropped significantly compared to the Castrol LL04. This is 12500 mi, compared to to 9-10K mi with the Castrol. One thing I am sure of is that the TBN will show it is safe to go up to 15-20K with this oil, though I estimate the soot could rise to almost 2% at 20K.
Yes, if you have 10L of Mobil 1 ESP by all means use it, oil is expensive in the UK, but I'd advise a 10K interval at the very most.

Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Stick with the M1 ESP since you have it and then switch to some LL01 if you want. You're running ULSD so I question how much of a benefit you'll gain by going LL01. In the UK does BMW recommend an OCI based on lesser of 1 yr or the CBS indicator?

For the record Charlie and I have a diffent opinion regarding the significance of TAN levels found in BMW diesels at the time the CBS states to change the oil.
In the UK you usually go off the cars computer, as I served my apprenticeship as a Diesel engineer and I daily work on Cat and Cummins engines I do agree with oil changes at around 10K, BMW don't though, but all I will say is you don't have cars queuing up at BMW for new engines.
Our car has only been used on LL04 Castrol Edge and Mobile 1 ESP and this is the oil change records in our BMW service book (all in miles), 24206, 49001, 68244, 87765, 107500, car is now on aprox 108K.

 

[MARTNT]

By the coments I am reading LL04 will protect the engine just as well as LL01?? but will need changing more frequently??

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: MARTNT
By the coments I am reading LL04 will protect the engine just as well as LL01?? but will need changing more frequently??
In the US the OCI on the M57 runs ~13k miles. Our diesel has 15ppm sulphur instead of 10ppm and the Castrol SLX OE is shot that interval with regards to TBN/TAN ratio. Charlie was uncomfortable with that ratio and chose a different oil with a higher TBN than the dealer fill of Castrol SLX OE. We're anxious to see the UOA on he oil.

One thing is for sure and that's your experience or lack of seeing BMW diesels with lubrication issues. LL04 has been around for a long time so history speaks for itself. Note: US petrol has higher sulphur than Europe /UK so BMW specs LL01 for the gassers in the US.