Which 0W30 HDEO is thinnest when cold?

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I consider all of Pennzoil's products to be of very good quality.

However, I have no interest in the "bottle shake" test methods; means nothing other than your ear and hand are working in concert. I'm not trying to pick on you or call you out, but I believe there's nothing important to glean about lube performance from the shake test. I hold it in the same regard as oil color and odor. There are technologies that far surpass our human senses when it comes to tribology.

I would presume the Kohler spec's a 5w-30, but a 0w-20 might do OK.

I suspect you're also over-thinking this a bit. You're only going to have one cold start each workday. The engine is likely to see hot and cold cycles, depending upon your welding loads. Being air cooled, the engine may have a tendency to "over cool" itself at times if you let it run with little or no load. I mention this because the wear from a cold start is only going to happen once a day, and people often become overly concerned about that one start. Yes - it's important to plan for a cold start; just don't get TOO concerned about it. A diesel engine has to overcome its compression to get a good start for ignition heat. Not so for a gasser; if it will crank over, it should start. I presume it's carb'd and not FI? FI would be even easier to start. My point being this: you're not going to need a super-duper ultra-thin oil to get the engine going. So don't try to find the "thinnest" oil at the risk of other desireable characteristics.

You might consider getting a cylinder head temp probe and track temps for the fun of it. That would really help you decide what oil to use. If the engine temp drops into a cold state often, even when running at times like idle or no load, a thinner 0w-20 might be OK. It if get's up to temp and stays there most of the time, I'd tend toward a 5w-30 syn. And either the Platinum or Ultra products from PZ would work well if you have easy access to them.

I'm sure Kohler has a help line or tech support contact; why not ask them for advice as well?
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
A PCMO syn is going to be easier and cheaper to get, and still provide all the protection you'll ever need.


Good suggestion for that application. My two cents would be Petro-Canada 0w-30, since he should be able to get that easily within driving distance.

The PDS is here.
 
I agree; there are many good quality reputable Canadian brands available in PCMO that would fit his use.

I only focused on PZ because he brought them up.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I only focused on PZ because he brought them up.


You do know of our troubles in finding Ultra, though, right?
wink.gif
It's like Bigfoot. I saw Ultra once, but I didn't get any pictures, and it's gone now.
 
Was not aware of that, but it doesn't suprise me. What of the Platinum? Any easier to find?

Regardless, I like your suggestion of the PC brand 0w-30. Great products that have got to be easier to find, and probably cheaper, than the alternatives.
 
Platinum is easy to find here. The last couple mornings have been -25 celcius and the welder has started up fairly decent on Esso XD-3 0W-30. Next oil change in about 2 weeks time will likely see PP 0W-20, though.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Was not aware of that, but it doesn't suprise me. What of the Platinum? Any easier to find?

Regardless, I like your suggestion of the PC brand 0w-30. Great products that have got to be easier to find, and probably cheaper, than the alternatives.


PP is available at Walmarts and Canadian Tires without issue. Apparently, a fellow Canuck was able to get PU at NAPA, although it may be special order. The PC is attractively priced. For whatever reason, at least when purchasing through Petro-Points, 0w-30 synthetic is about 20% cheaper than 5w-30 synthetic.

The PU sputtered at Walmart since they never gave it appropriate shelf space. The pricing was decent while it lasted, oddly enough, since they appeared to want to get rid of it in a hurry - it was usually cheaper than PP. I never saw any PU at Canadian Tire at all. Heck, a truck stop in Saskatoon still sells Pennzoil Gold, and all their Pennzoil products are priced competitively with Walmart!

The PC stuff should be more readily available in the sticks up here than would PP. In a rural area, one would have a few bulk distributors to choose from. Unfortunately, Shell got rid of all their rural bulk suppliers in this neck of the woods some years ago. So, M1/Delvac 1, PC, and Co-op would be the most readily available synthetics in small towns.
 
Don't give up on finding Chevron Delo 0W-30, if that's what you want. This far south, it took me forever to find it and it was a special order even when I found the right guy. It comes in a case ... 3 - 4 qt. jugs. Cost about $8 US per quart.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Chevron_Delo_0W-30_large.jpg

The stuff is pretty rare (I call it "Yeti Blood" because more people have seen yetis than this stuff) but it can be bought if you can get a hold of a Chevron dealer. It should be easier to find in Canada than here in the states (note the French and English languages on the front of the jug).

The Yeti Blood I ordered this year went into a friend's 2008 Honda Civic Si, a new Ariens snowblower (once it's broken in) and I'm not sure what else.
 
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
The stuff is pretty rare (I call it "Yeti Blood" because more people have seen yetis than this stuff) but it can be bought if you can get a hold of a Chevron dealer. It should be easier to find in Canada than here in the states (note the French and English languages on the front of the jug).


Interesting information. I haven't come across it here, but I haven't exactly looked for it, either. I did notice it's CG-4/SJ. Those are some pretty dated specifications. I'd certainly have a use or two for it; I bet my old truck would love it. Others might balk at something with such old specs.
 
Well I bought PP 0W-20 today. Going to change the oil tomorrow. I hope the 0W-20 is a wise choice.

When I'm home at Christmas time I'll stock up on HDEO 0W-30. Likely either Petro-Canada or Co-op DMO.
 
PP 0W-20 has a MRV at -40 degrees of 17,500cP and a 175 VI.

The best PCMO 0W-20's deals in Canada are the Toyota Brand 0W-20 and the Honda/Acura 0W-20. These high moly oils can be had for around 5 bucks/L.
The Toyota 0W-20 with it's 216 VI is the lightest oil available by far on start-up at non-extreme temp's, down to about -20C or so but it's MRV is only 18,000cP at -40.
M1 0W-20 has the lowest MRV of 9,200cP at -40 of any oil but is 35% heavier than the GP III based Toyota oil at 0C.
 
^Does that scream that the Toyota product was loaded with VI improvers for it not thin out as well down to -40 compared to M1 0w-20; where as it's lighter than M1 0w-20 at 0c?

If that is the case, how quickly before it's great initial/Virgin starting capability, at freezing compared to M1 0w-20, is erased? Basically, if the VIIs get used up over time, especially in the colder service conditions, wouldn't it not make more sense to start with M1 0w-20 if it indeed has better base-stock? I mean, you could argue the quality of their VIIs are good for initial VI/viscosity at freezing, but is the base-stock of Toyota's 0w-20 better than M1's since it can't go 'as low as well as' the AFE 0w-20? Doesn't that indicate better base stocks from group IV and V to achieve those numbers in M1?
 
M1 0W-20 likely uses more PAO base stocks to acheive the very low MRV value. But the Toyota 0W-20 oil was not designed for extreme cold performance, but rather to be as light as possible at more typical start-up temp's including room temperature. It likely contains less PP supressants as a consiquence.
As far as it's VIIs not standing up in extended service that's simply not the case. It's a 10,000 mile oil and we have UOAs showing as little as 4% viscosity loss after that drain period.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 0W-20 likely uses more PAO base stocks to acheive the very low MRV value. But the Toyota 0W-20 oil was not designed for extreme cold performance, but rather to be as light as possible at more typical start-up temp's including room temperature. It likely contains less PP supressants as a consequence.
As far as it's VIIs not standing up in extended service that's simply not the case. It's a 10,000 mile oil and we have UOAs showing as little as 4% viscosity loss after that drain period.


Okay, that sounds about right. I was sort of throwing an out of left field idea, not knowing what it's performance history in extended OCIs was like. Good retention also shows high quality 'ingredients' in what makes it such a solid 0w-20, without the cheap VII.

IIRC, my BIL had thoughts of using that in his '07 Fit. We live down in GA so I'm not sure if it matters that much, but I'd imagine we get more down to 'at freezing' start-ups than much colder below that. It makes me wonder at what temperature is the cross-over to allow M1 to not thicken up as quickly compared to the Toyota 0w-20 which starts becoming the thicker of the two???
 
If you look at the viscosity/temperature graph of any motor oil, as the temp's drop the viscosity at some point goes parabolic.
I don't know what the cross-over point would be, likely south of -20C. Even in my climate it's rare to see temp's getting that low but average winter temp's hover around the freezing point consiquently the Toyota 0W-20 with be much lighter on start-up 99.9% of the time.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you're talking extreme cold then I would rely on the MRV spec' and I believe the PAO based Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30 (nee Esso XD-3 0W-30) has the lowest viscosity at 14,000cP at -40 degrees.


Well I just bought a 12x1 liter bottle case of Elite 222 from my Esso bulk agent. Paid $75. I don't understand all the technical specs and numbers, so can someone here tell me if I bought a good quality oil? I was under the impression it was a full synthetic, but maybe its only a synthetic blend for that price? In Layman's Terms, what is this oil's strong points and weak?
 
Well, I think you just got a good deal. Full synthetic, semi-synthetic, and synthetic blend have, unfortunately, morphed into weasel words. There may be a good dose of Group IV in there, but its pour point isn't ridiculously low, either. In any case, you're not going to find "pure" synthetic oil unless you buy some Group IV with no additives, which would be a rather useless oil.

The data sheet isn't chocked with a lot of information. It looks to be a relatively thick 30 weight with the added benefit of a 0w rating and a fairly high VI. It's SM rated, too, but of course no ILSAC rating, since that's not its target. I'd say you got a fine oil at a very good price.

You just provided another example of how we Canucks can get very good oil deals without being subjected to Walmart's whims on pricing and selection.
 
caterham/atc250r;
IIRC, the XD-3 0w-30 oil was a grp iv based PAO oil.
It has been replaced with Delvac elite 222 0w-30 which is not the same basestock. I believe it is a semi synthetic with only a very small amount of grp iv PAO in it.

Your esso bulk agent (believe it or not) should be well educated on this topic!!!!
 
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Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
Don't give up on finding Chevron Delo 0W-30, if that's what you want. This far south, it took me forever to find it and it was a special order even when I found the right guy. It comes in a case ... 3 - 4 qt. jugs. Cost about $8 US per quart.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Chevron_Delo_0W-30_large.jpg

The stuff is pretty rare (I call it "Yeti Blood" because more people have seen yetis than this stuff) but it can be bought if you can get a hold of a Chevron dealer. It should be easier to find in Canada than here in the states (note the French and English languages on the front of the jug).

The Yeti Blood I ordered this year went into a friend's 2008 Honda Civic Si, a new Ariens snowblower (once it's broken in) and I'm not sure what else.


Can you tell us which company and who your contact person is and save me a bunch of trouble?
 
Originally Posted By: MichiganMadMan
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
Don't give up on finding Chevron Delo 0W-30, if that's what you want. This far south, it took me forever to find it and it was a special order even when I found the right guy. It comes in a case ... 3 - 4 qt. jugs. Cost about $8 US per quart.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Chevron_Delo_0W-30_large.jpg

The stuff is pretty rare (I call it "Yeti Blood" because more people have seen yetis than this stuff) but it can be bought if you can get a hold of a Chevron dealer. It should be easier to find in Canada than here in the states (note the French and English languages on the front of the jug).

The Yeti Blood I ordered this year went into a friend's 2008 Honda Civic Si, a new Ariens snowblower (once it's broken in) and I'm not sure what else.


Can you tell us which company and who your contact person is and save me a bunch of trouble?

PLEASE!
 
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