Toyota sludge picture

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Bob posted a picture, in the Car and Truck Lubrication section, in the thread "most sludge resistant oil", of a sludged up toyota engine. How would and should the various cleaners that are discussed here be used to clean this mess up?
 
eDiT: ASSUMING THE ENGINE HAS NOT REACHED THE POINT OF TOAST

For Amsoil Engine Flush, which removes this gel like no tomorrow: As prescribed on the container, remover oil filter, put on a new (cheap/big) filter, pour can in, idle for 15 minutes...drain oil completely.

No, this solvent flush will not ruin the engine.

I would follow with a very short change interval with a blend oil and run some Auto-Rx through.

[ November 25, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
 
Those engines are generally replaced because they have suffered severe wear due to oil starvation. Some engine even seize.

Prevention is easy - just change the dino oil every 3000-5000 miles or change a synthetic oil every 5000 - 7000 miles.

A surprizing number of owners are not interested in doing this preventive maintainance that will also ensure they will get 400,000 miles out of their engines. Instead, these owners want to sue Toyota and
force Toyota to buy back their vehicles (3.3 million of them) with catastrophic financial consequences for Toyota.
 
Monark, please... I see your a sales person and don't know in what, but can assume oil. If so, I don't know what you have to back up your suggested drain intervals but It is ill-advisable to do 5k on the standard dino oil in these engines.

3k if possible but by 4k the oil will be strung out to the next lower viscosity so do not do 5k unless you verify with oil analysis.

As for synth, 5k no problem but on past that, yes it might work 7,500 k but again, your driving habits/enviorment may prohibit this so oil analysis would be most prudent to ensure you can take the current oil you are using to those levels.

I have to say that it is amazing how toyota has all the sludge problems with customers that cannot do proper maintanence but have enough that they can sue. If the maintanence issue was true due to customers in ept ability to maintain scheduled maint, then why not chev or nissan with the same problem? Guess the toyota customers are less responsible? This is what got toyota in trouble to begin with as they pointed the finger at them saying it was thier fault and I can assure you that there was only a few handful that was guilty of that.

Pablo, An engine flush such as your suggesting would cause damage to a motor in this condition. Problem is a fast cleaner will not work on this cause it would have to break stuff off in chuncks and this is not a good idea.

If the engine didn't have any death rattles or knocks, then most of the time these engines were rebuilt provided no scaring on the piston walls. They would completly dis assemble the engine, put it through a 1.5 hr steam bath to clean out the debre after then had scrapped what they could, Then reassembled. Otherwise, they replaced the short block.
 
quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Monark, please... I see your a sales person and don't know in what, but can assume oil. If so, I don't know what you have to back up your suggested drain intervals but It is ill-advisable to do 5k on the standard dino oil in these engines.

3k if possible but by 4k the oil will be strung out to the next lower viscosity so do not do 5k unless you verify with oil analysis.

As for synth, 5k no problem but on past that, yes it might work 7,500 k but again, your driving habits/enviorment may prohibit this so oil analysis would be most prudent to ensure you can take the current oil you are using to those levels.

I have to say that it is amazing how toyota has all the sludge problems with customers that cannot do proper maintanence but have enough that they can sue. If the maintanence issue was true due to customers in ept ability to maintain scheduled maint, then why not chev or nissan with the same problem? Guess the toyota customers are less responsible? This is what got toyota in trouble to begin with as they pointed the finger at them saying it was thier fault and I can assure you that there was only a few handful that was guilty of that.

Pablo, An engine flush such as your suggesting would cause damage to a motor in this condition. Problem is a fast cleaner will not work on this cause it would have to break stuff off in chuncks and this is not a good idea.

If the engine didn't have any death rattles or knocks, then most of the time these engines were rebuilt provided no scaring on the piston walls. They would completly dis assemble the engine, put it through a 1.5 hr steam bath to clean out the debre after then had scrapped what they could, Then reassembled. Otherwise, they replaced the short block.


Monarch, I a a copy of an article from Autonews (not sure if I can post a link or not) that describes the problem in a Sienna that had receipts for oil changes with 4-6K intervals. It still sludged up.
 
Back to the question....what program to follow to clean up a similar problem based on what we can do in our own garages?
 
Bob,

I suspect "Monarch" works for Nissan, quite possibly in their parts department. He may even be one of their service managers, since he has had to deal with aftermarket air filters and possibly MAF contamination issues.

TS
 
From what I've gathered from reading here and there is that the definition of "severe conditions" has been broadened. I used to drive the LA freeways and was told that it is considered a severe condition due to stop/start driving conditions. Many LA drivers would assume that they are in the Freeway Driving category and would use the longer oil change interval. Under those conditions there could be excessive sludge build-up.
My Toyota 3.0 6cyl is holding up well after a treatment with ARX. The 3000 mile cross country trip to PA helped too.
 
Should think you need to do a slower, gentle cleaning(auto-rx or maybe neutra 131? Bob?) first, then possibly a quick clean to ensure everything is out of there. Should think 3k oil changes on dino would be the max. and maybe 5k on synthetic or Schaeffers blend.
 
Bob - I guess the answer on the solvent flush is "it depends"
wink.gif
....I tend to think the solvent will disolve the crud...but I guess if ALL the oil is jello....the damage may already be done, and there will be no oil for the solvent to mix with. But in that case there wouldn't be any oil for the Auto-Rx to disolve in either....just nasty.

If the engine isn't dead, yet, and only starting to "jell" the real answer may be to drain whatever comes out first. Put in some fresh oil, and new filter then add the flush.

My buddy bought his Avalon used and had nothing to suspect his engine was nasty. Good compression numbers, no ugli noises. So he just added the Amsoil flush and the crap really came out. No damage occured. He has done a few short interval oil changes since...and all is well so far.
Again no driving with this flush - unloaded idling engine only.
 
With regard to Los Angeles, there are literally hundreds of thousands of '97-'02 Toyota V6 engines on the road in this region. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Are there lots of these V6 cars in L.A.sitting beside the road due to engine seizures caused by sludge? NO

Are the L.A. Toyota dealers lots overflowing with sludged vehicles awaiting engine replacement? NO

Do a majority of LA V6 owners use dino oil? YES

Do a majority of LA V6 owners change their dino oil every 5000-7000 miles as instructed in the owner manual? YES

Do thousands of LA V6 owners already have
over 100,000 troublefree miles on their engines using 5000-7000 mile oil change intervals? YES

Do dozens have over 200,000? YES

Does sludge happen to less than 1% of V6 owners? YES.

Are Toyota Technicians correct in recommending 3000-5000 dino oil change intervals (or 5000-7500 synthetic intervals) to
prevent that < 1% of sludged owners from ever getting sludge. YES
 
Manark,

Where do you get all your statistics from? Seems you are defending toyota on an issue that is very fleeting at best to most, have you got an interest in this campain? I'd like to see what numbers you have to support the 3 to 5k drains with dino with no problem.
 
Bob,

I'm with you 100% on this one ....

I think a Toyota V-6 running 5000-7000 mile oil change intervals with even a group II petroleum oil would suffer severe sludging within 50,000 miles. When you consider the baseline TBN of most petroleum lubes is in the 5.5-7.5 range, there is no way you could safely run these kind of ODO's.
 
TooSlick: How come thousands of
'97 - '01 owners have already accumulated over 100,000 trouble free miles? Why aren't Toyota dealers lots overflowing with sludged vehicles awaiting engine replacement? Why do we not see Toyota V6 cars stranded beside our highways with seized engines due to sludge? On the basis of common sense, I
tend to believe Toyotas claim that less than 1% of V6 owners are getting sludge following the factory recommended oil change interval of 5000-7500 miles and that this 1% incident rate could be mitigated if owners would use 3000-5000 mile dino change intervals.

I've heard there are 3,300,000 of the '97-'01 sludge susceptible V6's and 4 cyl engines on the road. Since Los Angeles = about 10% of the USA population and is a region where Toyotas are very popular, I think its reasonable to assume there are about 300,000 of sludge susceptible engines on the road in this one area alone. I also think its reasonable to assume at around 10% of these owners (around 30,000 of them) drive 25,000 -50,000 miles or more a year and now have 100,000 -200,000 miles on their cars.
 
quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Manark,

Where do you get all your statistics from? Seems you are defending toyota on an issue that is very fleeting at best to most, have you got an interest in this campain? I'd like to see what numbers you have to support the 3 to 5k drains with dino with no problem.


Maybe they were using Schaeffer's dino?
cool.gif


If any dino could do it... well Delvac 1300 might do it too, or Delo, or the 76 stuff....

OK, I'll be quite now.
 
quote:

Originally posted by monarch:
TooSlick: How come thousands of
'97 - '01 owners have already accumulated over 100,000 trouble free miles? Why aren't Toyota dealers lots overflowing with sludged vehicles awaiting engine replacement? Why do we not see Toyota V6 cars stranded beside our highways with seized engines due to sludge? On the basis of common sense, I
tend to believe Toyotas claim that less than 1% of V6 owners are getting sludge following the factory recommended oil change interval of 5000-7500 miles and that this 1% incident rate could be mitigated if owners would use 3000-5000 mile dino change intervals.

I've heard there are 3,300,000 of the '97-'01 sludge susceptible V6's and 4 cyl engines on the road. Since Los Angeles = about 10% of the USA population and is a region where Toyotas are very popular, I think its reasonable to assume there are about 300,000 of sludge susceptible engines on the road in this one area alone. I also think its reasonable to assume at around 10% of these owners (around 30,000 of them) drive 25,000 -50,000 miles or more a year and now have 100,000 -200,000 miles on their cars.


Monark,

Again, where ya coming up with the statistics? I believe you are way off base on your recommendations for this application and to have TS agree with me (for a change
patriot.gif
), I believe you're mis informed. You have missed the understanding on how and why. All these engines not sludged up in the past were... doing 3k drains as it is now the newer ones being told to extend, also, any one that has an engine going 100,200,or 300k is not doing 7500 mile drain intervals.. they are doing 3k, again, show us where ya getting all these numbers showing how so many people are doing extended drains on dino oil and getting those miles on an engine without problems.. Aint happening.
 
"How come thousands of '97 - '01 owners have already accumulated over 100,000 trouble free miles? Why aren't Toyota dealers lots overflowing with sludged vehicles awaiting engine replacement?"

Straight highway miles are the easiest on an engine, especially in a mild temperate climate. Any car on the road will hit 100,000mi in only 5 trouble-free years. You don't rack up that sort of mileage with stop and go.
 
"Since Los Angeles = about 10% of the USA population"

The state of California is about 10% of the US population, not just LA.

If you keep rounding up and extrapolating in favor of your opinion you can win the arguement, right?

New Toyotas are popular here too but you don't see many over eight to ten years of age even though they have sold in large numbers for at least the past twenty years. Just an observation but so is yours based on Camrys on the side of the road with 'I got a seized engine' signs.

[ November 26, 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: mormit ]
 
Oh well...so much for discussing ideas and products to clean something like this up.

Thanks Pablo for your input.
 
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