Why Not Use HDEO in Everything?

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I'm sure somewhere in this 10-page thread, we've already noted that just because something is not "optimum", does not mean it's not "more than good enough".


Heck, if my G were out of warranty and I really wanted to simplify things, I could use 10w-30 HDEO in both it and my old F-150 year round. Like I said, it may not be optimal, but considering I have a heated garage and heated business shops, cold starts wouldn't be a problem.

Simplification is the key if one has to manage a lot of vehicles, believe me.

 

[ltslimjim]

Is there any concern over wear protection in a higher mag formulated HDEO over PCMOs of past that had gotten away from mag?

HDEO could handle some things better than, while PCMO can handle other areas better in a street driven gasoline app.

 

[tommygunn]

All I know is my car calls for a 30w oil, HDEO's often come in a 0w-30 'arctic' blend that I love.

It might only be semi-synthetic but its way cheaper then the next PCMO 0w-30 out there, so win win for me.

Its all situational really. If you can benefit from an HDEO, sure, but I wouldn't really go out of my way to chase one down, especially if it means going out of my "weights" alot.

 

[Ducati996]

Being somewhat obsessed with lubricants & filters (aren’t we all) and reading all I can find on this topic my thoughts have changed from use HDEO in everything to using oils actually recommended & approved.
The reason for my change of opinion is;
Diesels are designed with much larger bearings and need additives & detergents to neutralize acids and also hold in suspension combustion residue until the next oil change.
The larger bearings put less stress on a lubricants film because there is more surface to carry the load.
Gasoline engines in particular small high powered engines of today have very small components and bearings which puts enormous loads on lubricants. Maintaining a fluid film in these areas requires a lubricant with high film strength that resists being squeezed out.
The detergents in HDEO reduce the film strength (surface tension) thus the ability of a lubricant to maintain that precious barrier between highly loaded components.
Look at a pond and the water bugs scooting around. They are held up by the surface tension of the water, however add a little dish detergent and they will sink like a rock.

While performing a complete service my BMW Z3 which gets done every 3 years due to occasional use I realized when looking in my considerable stash of synthetic oils that I did not want to settle on what I considered was the most suitable oil I had in stock, I wanted oil that was approved & highly recommended.

I have had excellent results using HDEO in everything but knowledge forces me to rethink the way I do things and that can make what was once a simple decision difficult.

 

[m37charlie]

This thread is so long I'm not even sure if I've already said this, but...
M1 0W40 has superior TBN to most (all) CJ4 HDEOs - 11.8
It has maximal viscometric properties, hard to beat 0W40 - even if does shear
It has as much ZDDP as CJ4 HDEOs
It has maximal PCMO approvals including for small diesels
I would use it any passenger car/SUV application that did not require a (dreadful) ACEA C3 low SAPS oil.
I would even use it for top-up in my Unimog if it was all I had around and it was low, the base oil is undoubtedly more similar to my 5W40 Delvac than 15W40 HDEO would be.

Charlie

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducati996
The detergents in HDEO reduce the film strength (surface tension) thus the ability of a lubricant to maintain that precious barrier between highly loaded components.


While your point is taken, I suspect the generally higher HTHS of an HDEO compensates for that. That is, of course, if you're comparing apples to apples, like a 10w-30 PCMO versus a 10w-30 dual rated HDEO. There are plenty of 10w-30 PCMOs that are thinner at operating temperatures than even 5w-30 and 0w-30 PCMOs. With a 10w-30 HDEO, it's going to be way on the thick end of things.

If someone's car is out of warranty but M1 0w-40 and its ilk were specified, 15w-40 might not be an ideal choice, especially over long intervals. If you go to the "right" HDEO, like a Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, it's likely a lot closer. Do recall that modern HDEOs are a fair bit different than previous variants and emissions concerns are bringing down the levels of certain compounds - ash and TBN are dropping.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Ducati996
The detergents in HDEO reduce the film strength (surface tension) thus the ability of a lubricant to maintain that precious barrier between highly loaded components.
While your point is taken, I suspect the generally higher HTHS of an HDEO compensates for that.

If someone's car is out of warranty but M1 0w-40 and its likes were specified, 15w-40 might not be an ideal choice.

Does it mean that a 15W-40 will damage the engine components and possibly cause "excessive vibrations" (thet is, over & above just the CAT converter problems due to higher ash, when used in a passenger car like the Honda Civic (R18 engine, for example) or the Mitsubishi Evo engines, etc. ?

It would be really insightful to hear actual experiences and opinions on this(above).

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Does it mean that a 15W-40 will damage the engine components and possibly cause "excessive vibrations" (thet is, over & above just the CAT converter problems due to higher ash, when used in a passenger car like the Honda Civic (R18 engine, for example) or the Mitsubishi Evo engines, etc. ?


What I was meaning, specifically, was taking something like a newer Audi that had an oil such as M1 0w-40 or GC specified, and using a 15w-40 after warranty. The viscosity would be in the correct range, but you may not be able to count on the extended OCI, along with issues like ash and so forth, ignoring cat issues, as you mentioned.

For the specific application examples you mentioned, hopefully someone who has some experience with this might be able to help us out.

As far as film strength and what happens with detergents, water and oil are not the same and do not behave in identical fashions when it comes to surface tension and film strength. A relatively small amount of detergent in water can noticeably disrupt water's surface tension. Those of us without access to a lab would be hard pressed to tell the difference first hand between a virgin sample of non-detergent 40 and HDEO 40.

If something is specified to use an average 30 grade, it would be hard to imagine an HDEO with an HTHS of 3.7 to 4.0 having an insufficient film strength.

 

[fpracha]

hello,
what is the 0w-30 'arctic' blend you are using ?

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
All I know is my car calls for a 30w oil, HDEO's often come in a 0w-30 'arctic' blend that I love.



hello tommygunn,
what is the 0w-30 'arctic' blend you are using ?

 

[cp3]

Here is my run on Petro-Canada Duron Synthetic 0w30, I thought it did just fine. I am in fact considering getting another case and running it in both cars, even though in that post I said I would likely not run it again. I like that it stayed in grade, most PCMOs don't in the Ecotec.

 

[miniac007]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

If you don't use ANY product to it's full potential, it's a waste. So, if you choose to use HDEO rather than a PCMO in the application, the real question is: did you get your value out of it?


Just to complete with an european point of view: In europe, particulary in Sweden, PCMOs are far more expensive than HDEO.

So, even we don't extend the OCI, and waste a part of the oil potential, it is worth using it.

I can have a good CI-4/SL here for 4€/l which is 50% less than a API SL/CF PCMO ... So I use it everywhere...

 

[WBoer]

Indeed, HD 15W40 CI-4/Acea E7 B3/B4 is very cheap and works perfectly fine in many older and even newer diesel engines I use it to, €25 5 liter.

 

[pavelow]

If you are on the fence about running a "Diesel" oil in your gas engine, don't do it. You will second guess yourself like crazy and honestly, it's not that big of a deal. If you do want to run "Diesel" oil, I'd suggest running Rotella's 5W40. It's that easy.