Lube Control/Fuel Power???

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Any new developments on these two products or is it still too early? They sound very interesting. I saw a little bit more in the oil analysis section, but not much.
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LC/FP was tested by us and I am allowed to talk about them at this time on Bobs Board.

I DONOT sell this stuff, until someone becomes a site sponsor for LC/FP just email me and I will give you the phone # for the owner of the products.

LC/FP were developed in 1958 and was not ever marketed properly.

The owner, Mr. Odis Beaver is willing to sell both chemistries for all you investment bankers.

Bob has a test report owned by Dyson Analysis that he has agreed to post here soon that will answer and generate alot of interest.

The LC will stabilize and add solvency to a motor oil, while the FP is a super fuel treatment. They are both very inexpensive and very effective to use.

I am conducting ongoing oil analysis testing with the products.

See the 9000 mile Schaeffers 5w-30 Honda CRV test using the LC/FP adds.

I have seen Pennzoil 5w-30 go 25,000 miles in a Ford F150 300 6 cyl that is driven daily and had a horrible induction leak ( high Si-dirt) using these products.

These are high powered SOLVENT products that are inhibited to work safely. Unlike a gentle product non solvent, bio based, like Auto-RX. Schaeffers# 131 is somewhere chemically between LC and Auto- RX.

I have consulted with chemists and engineers who visit here and invite them to post answers that will help educate about the LC/FP product.

[ November 20, 2002, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
Terry,
On another post you indicated that the Fuel Power was used at a ratio of 1 ounce FP to 5 gallons of gas. Is the Fuel Power good for both gas and diesel?
 
Has any testing been done to see what LC does to fully synthetic oils as far as extending drain intervals? Can it even be used with full syns.? How about using it in tranny, diffs., and transfer cases?

FP---what does this product do (besides boosting fuel power?)? Any cleaning properties?
 
FP treat is 1 oz to 5 gallons of fuel ( gas or diesel) yes it cleans, really well.

LC can be used in gearboxes,etc, but I personally would only recommend using it as a flush for them.

We are focusing mostly on engines for LC. 1/2 oz in a Auto Trans is very effective at improving shifting etc.

The bench testing performed for Dyson Analysis shows both Amsoil and M1 Super Syn compatibility with LC, we have only seen extended drains using mineral or blends but I see no problems using it for a full syn. The neat thing about LC is that you can use a lower cost oil and reduce or negate the oxidation rate with LC extending the drain without spending the $ on a more exotic oil.

The bench test data once posted will answer alot of these questions.
 
Fuel Power increases combustion efficiency, lubricates fuel pumps and injectors, cleans the fuel system, and increases mileage. It scavenges water and moisture from the fuel system as well so the resulting mix can be burned in the conbustion chamber. Combustion chambers can be cleaned using Fuel Power.

Lube Control was initially used as an engine treatment to clean sludgy engines in the '50's when detergents and crankcase cleaners (other than maybe diesel fuel) were not available. LC is a very versatile product.

Lube Control levels the TBN, reduces oxidation, provides an extra measure of lubricity, provides extra rust control, and will literally melt (soften and emulsify) carbonaceous deposits. It then places these carbonaceous deposits into the oil solution. Lube Control can also be used as a cylinder prepatory storage oil (squirted into the individual cylinder) in automotive and small engines to clean carbon deposits and keep rings and cylinders from rusting during storage.
2-cycle and 4-cycle engines that have stuck rings can be unstuck with LC. (Saturns come to mind!!)

I would also highly recommend it as an engine flush in a dosage of 16 oz/per 4 qts. Run the engine for 10 minutes with the old oil and filter and then drain. If some of the LC is left in the engine, not to worry. It's very gentle in the newly recommended treatment levels.

As far as cleaning and time to clean, the power of LC is somewhere between Auto-RX and Neutra.

Both are very safe around hot surfaces and flammability is not a problem, as it has been with some of the thinner OTC products.

Someone mentioned elevated lead levels with LC. I tested it in three automobile engines with analysis at approx. 1.3k, 3k+ intervals and never observed any elevated lead levels.

[ November 21, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
As Terry Mentioned, it is miscible (fully mixable) with non-detergent oils, fully formulated Petroleum Oils, and fully formulated Synthetic Oils.

4 months of testing with high concentrations of LC and FP in non-detergent motor oil also revealed that it had no detectable effect on 7 different types of elastomers, including engine crankcase seals and hoses. There were no swelling, pliabiilty, or durometer issues.

Paint Finishes were not an issue as well: The LC and FP were sprinkled on painted surfaces in the hot sun during the summer without any indications of blistering or paint softening. As with any cleaner, I would wipe the area of the spill to remove ANY cleaner or aditive.
 
For diesel fuel, you want a product that demulsifies the water into bigger droplets so the water separator can remove the water more effectively.

The other satisfactory alternative is to put the water into extremely small droplets and encapsulate them as in the Lubrizol's PuriNox system http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/proformix/index.shtml

Ken

[ November 21, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 
But we all know that not all the water gets removed by the separators.

[ November 21, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
The scavenging does allow MOST of the water to be separated.

Even with the new HEUI technology, the injectors have to be tolerant of a certain amount of moisture in the fuel. So it's not like the injection system will not pass any moisture, they want the moisture levels to be very low.

[ November 21, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
This from the http://freeautoadvice.com/diesel/fuel.html web site:

The HEUI is hydraulically actuated by high pressure engine oil supplied by a gear
driven high pressure oil pump. There are four major components that make up the injector. They are the solenoid,poppet valve, intensifier piston and plunger, and the nozzle assembly.

The Powerstroke has had a few injector oring upgrade’s since 94. Also the injectors themselves have been improved. The new one’s are called split shot injectors or prime injectors. They have been used in California engines since 1996 model year and they are in all 1997 econolines. Now prime injectors are used in all Powerstroke. The prime injectors are lot quieter than the older injectors. They work by firing a small amountof fuel first and then the rest of it. This helps to create a slower flame front and quiet down the racket especially at idle. The clearances in the injector are extremely close and they hate contaminated fuel and water, so be sure to change the filter often and use good quality fuel. A good fuel additive is important in winter months.

Fuel Quality

A major percentage of all problems with diesel engines are related to fuel quality. Diesel fuel can sometimes vary from one shipment to another or from one area to another. Customers also switch from one fuel vendor to another and suppliers sometimes change the fuel they are
offering. The three things that vary the most in diesel fuel are cetane, weight and viscosity. Cetane is defined as the susceptibility of the fuel to self ignite. Acceptable cetane levels are between 40 and 45, however, very few fuel distributors advertise this since each batch may be different. Cetane can influence both starting and combustion roughness of an engine. High altitudes and low temperatures demand increased cetane number of the fuel.

The weight of the fuel or specific gravity plays a major role in the heat content of the fuel. Number 1 is a "lighter" grade while number 2 is "heavier" or weighs more per gallon. While the lighter fuel (#1) has a lower "cloud point" and may provide better starting in cold temperatures, the heavier fuel(#2) has better lubricating qualities and actually contains more heat units (BTU’s) per volume. Assuming the fuels are the same price, better fuel economy is obtained by using #2.

The third aspect of fuel to consider is viscosity. Since "lighter" (#1) fuel is less dense it becomes thinner when heated than the heavier #2 fuel. When this occurs more fuel begins to leak through the high pressure parts of the injection pump which actually caused the injection pump to pump less fuel. As the fuel temperature continues to increase, more fuel is lost through leakage and this results in a power loss of between 1% and 7%.

Taking all these things into consideration buying #2 diesel fuel is the best all around fuel for the diesel engine. There are fuel treatments available to deal with cold weather, low lubrication, qualities, and unknown cetane content of diesel fuel. Buying fuel from a reputable dealer is a good way to insure high quality fuel. The best ones seem to be places that move a lot of diesel fuel such as truck stops, etc. The only way to insure your fuel quality is to treat it yourself and since every tank may be different every tank will need to be treated.



Why do I need to add an additive in my diesel fuel?

A better word for additive would be treatment. A treatment is needed when the diesel fuel is lacking a substance or has a contaminant. This is very obvious in winter time when the temperature gets cold enough to wax up. Treatment with a winterizer lowers the wax point of the diesel fuel to a lower temperature similar to the way adding antifreeze lowers the freezing point of water. The most common reason for treating diesel fuel is to provide extra lubrication. Almostevery fuel injection component requires the diesel to lubricate at least some part of that component. Since low sulfur fuel was introduced, the lubricating quality of diesel fuel has varied greatly. Some suppliers put in an additive for this and some do not. Each tank of fuel you fill up with can be different. Since low sulfur fuel began being used in on-highway vehicles we've seen the life expectancy of the fuel injection system drop as much as 25%. This is great for the repair business but bad for diesel vehicles in general especially since fuel injection components keep getting more and more expensive to repair. Taking this into consideration, treating diesel fuel with a lubricant is more like an insurance policy against wear and although it does not stop the wear, consistent use can delay repairs considerably. However, caution should be made not to treat your fuel with an additive containing ALCOHOL. The alcohol has been proven to deteriorate some fuel injection components quicker and could even cause long term engine damage. With an additive like Stanadyne Performance Formula you not only get the winterizer and the lubricant amongst other benefits you also get a 5 point cetane increase and in turn up to an 8% fuel economy gain to help pay for the protection you get by adding the lubricant.

The FP has been tested on various fuel metering components, including
carburetor o-rings and fuel injector seals. No deterioration has been noted. It appears that fuel quality would be more of a major concern that a fuel additive containing cleaners.

[ November 21, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
The FP has been tested on various fuel metering components, including
carburetor o-rings and fuel injector seals. No deterioration has been noted. It appears that fuel quality would be more of a major concern that a fuel additive containing cleaners.[/QB]

MolaKule,

I think if you read my post again, you will note that I do not question the lubricating qualities nor any seal compatibility of Fuel Power. I can assure you that is well documented and I have that info.

My question is how the FP handles the water. I have driven and owned diesels since 1979, so I am no stranger to fuel handling, additives etc.
Any water causes excess wear on the injectors. I personally use a 30 micron fuel/water separator, and this feeds a 2 micron factory fuel/water separator. My question concerns the ability of FP to prevent the fuel/water separator to do it's job. Also does the FP contain any alcohol type components. Not asking for an MSDS or proprietary info.

I have no/zero concerns using the FP in any gasoline powered vehicle. In fact, cost, cleaning ability etc. are really attractive.

I can assure you that every lite/med duty diesel owner will ask these question.

Some misleading info in the post on PSD injectors. My 2001 has only 1 splitshot (prime) injector and that is the #8 cylinder. There are a couple other points but not relevant to this
discussion.
 
We did an informal test on a John Deere (not documented) diesel, a neighbor's farm tractor (brave soul!).

We experienced no water related problems or performance problems but did not pull injectors to inspect them, hence did not include this in original report. The test was done in mid-August, so we don't know how much moisture may have accumulated in the fuel or how much was in storage tanks.

As per PM, if you don't have the warm fuzzies about FP in diesels, save it for your gasoline engines.

I understand your concern and I would question as well since you have a lot invested in those high compression chunks of iron.
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"Some misleading info in the post on PSD injectors. My 2001 has only 1 splitshot (prime) injector and that is the #8 cylinder. There are a couple other points but not relevant to this
discussion. "

This was swiped off the net (from the referenced web) site so Reader Beware!
 
Vetteman, consult with Odis Beaver and ask how many newer PSD customers he has that are using the product. That may give you a better feeling about its safety in your situation.
 
MolaKule,
Thanks for the info. I knew that that came off another site as I have seen it prior. Alot of good info on fuels.

I may do a test on the FP on one truck. I will empty both fuel/water separators, change filters and if I do get water I will know that it is working correctly. I will know this because I always get some water each month. May only be 1/2 ounce, but I do get some. So if it continues to separate, I know the FP is working and allowing the fuel/water separator to do it's job.. I do like the lubricity and cleaning attributes of FP, a requirement for injectors in a diesel.

Terry,
You must have been posting as I was typing. As usual, I seemed to have worried/concerned, when in reality there is/was none. No detrimental effect on fuel/water separation.

[ November 21, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 
Water in diesel fuel causes two main problems...lack of lubricity and cavitation erosion in the injection pump. Small amounts of water may cause very slight amounts of damage that takes a period of time to become apparent.

As said before, demusification and the maximum removal of water is best.

Ken
 
I am no fuels expert but FP has been used in OTR trucks since the mid 1950's with no issues or problems ( including the newest injection systems).

Thats why I suggest talking to Odis as he has more knowledge about the applications he has seen it used in for years.

From what I know about the chemistries I would use it in my own diesels if I had any.
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule: It scavenges water and moisture from the fuel system as well so the resulting mix can be burned in the conbustion chamber. Combustion chambers can be cleaned using Fuel Power.

The question that I have is concerning diesel fuel. Until a few years ago, diesel injectors could pass most liquids with no problem. Now with the CAT HEUI injectors, water in any form is a big problem. It the Fuel Power scavenges water from the fuel and moves it to the fuel/water seperator can it be removed or will it pass through and into the injectors?

The amount of water in diesel fuel can and does in many cases exceed 500 PPM. So does the FP emulsify water and move it ect?

So another question is: does this 50's technology Fuel Power still remain compatable with newer injectors in a diesel engine? Also are there any alcohol components involved which is a big no-no in the HEUI system?
 
This is fascinating. When you talk about using 16 oz. of LC (or any additive) as a flush for 10 minutes before changing the oil, shouldn't 16 oz. of oil be drained off first, or does it matter for such a short period of time?
 
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