Honda DW-1 7800 mi/2005 Civic 56k mi

[oiltard]

Prompt response from Blackstone. I'm kind of buying their "it costs more because service is better" argument, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Originally Posted By: Blackstone
Happy to help in any way I can. We use the Cleveland Open Cup method for determining flashpoint. Normally a low flashpoint is caused by fuel or a solvent of some sort, but that's not likely in your ATF. There is margin of error, as is always the case when humans are doing the tests, but it's quite small when it comes to flashpoint. It's possible that a number was entered wrong, so I'll see if there's enough sample to redo the flashpoint test and let you know. As for the viscosity, you're sample was normal compared to our benchmark for DW1 ATF. Viscosities tend to have a range to them that's normal as opposed to one number that each sample should adhere to. As long as it's within that range, we consider it normal. Have a great day.

 

[oiltard]

and
Originally Posted By: Blackstone
I had the flashpoint redone and it was a lab error. The sample flashed at 340°F, which is perfectly normal. I'll send you an amended report this afternoon. Sorry for the error. Let me know if you have any other questions and have a great day

 

[oiltard]

When did higher TAN's become acceptable? I looked through some old reports and values lower than mine were being flagged.

For anyone who cares, here's the amended report:

Code:
Amended report showing correct flashpoint. Thanks for the notes about the new Honda ATF you're

using. It looks like it's working pretty well so far in your Civic's transmission. Our universal averages show

typical wear for this type of transmission after ~18,500 miles of oil use, and most of your wear metals are

reading at a fraction of those levels, so we don't see any signs of problems developing. The TAN was 1.6,

not too acidic. No problems here.



SAMPLE UNIVERSAL AVERAGES

ALUMINUM 6 30

CHROMIUM 0 1

IRON 20 65

COPPER 6 15

LEAD 2 2

TIN 0 1

MOLYBDENUM 1 1

NICKEL 0 0

MANGANESE 1 1

SILVER 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0

POTASSIUM 0 3

BORON 226 221

SILICON 6 11

SODIUM 0 8

CALCIUM 362 343

MAGNESIUM 222 167

PHOSPHORUS 26 112

ZINC 278 282

BARIUM 1 3



Values Should Be

sus@210 44.9 43-51

CsT@100 5.68 5.1-7.9

FP 340 >335

Water 0
Insolubles 0
TAN 1.6

 

[ltslimjim]

TAN looks low to me, 1.6 is pretty low AFAIK? :????

 

[oiltard]

Maybe it is. I looked at a lot of old Z-1 fluid VOA's and they had really low TAN's (~0.4). This is the new fluid, DW-1, so maybe it doesn't have as low a starting TAN.

Blackstone didn't list a reference range, but they did note it was "not too acidic" in the comments. What would be a TAN value that should concern me? Am I right to think that TAN will increase through use?

 

[ltslimjim]

^IDK so much regarding ATF, but give this scenario:

Your factory fill stays in for 50,000 miles. Used up fluid, it needs to be changed, TAN in that old fluid is probably high and any remaining fluid is going to have 'some' elevated acidity compared to virgin. The scale may be much less to Honda's genuine ATFs.

This is why a real virgin sample is needed, as it's only a guess otherwise.

That number doesn't seem too worrisome at all, JMO.

I'll let others with more experience with ATFs and/or this in particular to give their opinion.

Basically, fluid condition could simply point a service environment and not necessarily fluid condemnation. B_S said themselves it wasn't a problem, in essence. What would be a problem for ATF? ...IDK. Probably anything around 3 or 4, is getting into 'neglected' A/Ts. Just a guess though, as without Virgin vs. used fluid; of the varying types, it's hard to say what is characteristic of any 1 ATF and then you have to know what is typical of the A/T itself you are servicing or have in question.

 

[oiltard]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think the Z-1 started with a 0.1 TAN, which is crazy low, and I was looking at that as a reference point. I didn't see any UOA's of the DW-1 with TAN's so low, so I'm not super concerned about it.

I'm also less worried about the viscosity drop after perusing the forums here. It seems that ATF (all. not just Honda) gets sheared a bit once it's put into service and much, much more slowly thereafter.

I agree that it would be really nice to have a VOA of the DW-1. Anybody interested in splitting the cost 3 or 4 ways with me? I'll gladly collect the funds, provide the sample, and mail it in to Blackstone.

 

[benjamming]

Glad to hear the good news on the FP. You were fortunate that they hadn't thrown the old fluid out & still had enough to do another test. IMHO, B_S should've ran it again before sending it out to a customer. Not much QC in that regard.

TAN can be higher like you have w/o a real issue - just depends upon fluid formulation. For example, RLI ATF typically runs 1.3-1.4 after 7500 miles in my '02 Accord with the old 4-speed AT.