0w-40 or 5w-40 for hot summers in audi with turbos

[fdcg27]

I doubt that there'd be any risk of sludge using an oil designed to deal with diesel soot loading.
I also doubt that an oil designed for turbo diesels would cause turbo failure in a mild gasser turbo.
The point?
If all we do is repeat the mantra of our owner's manuals in selecting an oil, there is no point to this board.
If we reach beyond what we see printed therein, then we actually can learn something.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I doubt that there'd be any risk of sludge using an oil designed to deal with diesel soot loading.
I also doubt that an oil designed for turbo diesels would cause turbo failure in a mild gasser turbo.
The point?
If all we do is repeat the mantra of our owner's manuals in selecting an oil, there is no point to this board.
If we reach beyond what we see printed therein, then we actually can learn something.

Why you think that gas turbos are less exposed to high temperatures and smaller pressure than truck turbos?
I would think opposite since they are smaller, usually with variable geometry etc.
Then what is point having all these requirements? Big conspiracy theory?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Then what is point having all these requirements? Big conspiracy theory?


There are others who know far more about this than I do, but as I understand it, main driving forces behind Audi's oil standards were the long oil drain intervals they were seeking, the very loose definition and high disparity in quality of synthetics, both of which ended up making a simple API designation insignificant.

My old 1991 Audi 200 Turbo was under the old API protocol. It had fairly length oil change intervals, particularly given the size of the sump. 12,000 km OCIs with a 4.5L sump in a turbo could cause some problems. That being said, I primarily used 15w-40 HDEO without any issues, but didn't push the OCI, since I wasn't doing any UOAs.

So, when Audi and other manufacturers found problems, what could they do? Specify synthetic? Sure, assuming that someone chose a synthetic suitable for long drains, and of the appropriate grade. So, they came up with their own specifications.

Personally, at least outside of warranty, I don't think an Audi owner would have any problems running an HDEO for short OCIs, or more regular OCIs on an appropriate synthetic HDEO, such as Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40. This has been done by at least one of our more esteemed members in hot summers in a high output German application.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Then what is point having all these requirements? Big conspiracy theory?


There are others who know far more about this than I do, but as I understand it, main driving forces behind Audi's oil standards were the long oil drain intervals they were seeking, the very loose definition and high disparity in quality of synthetics, both of which ended up making a simple API designation insignificant.

My old 1991 Audi 200 Turbo was under the old API protocol. It had fairly length oil change intervals, particularly given the size of the sump. 12,000 km OCIs with a 4.5L sump in a turbo could cause some problems. That being said, I primarily used 15w-40 HDEO without any issues, but didn't push the OCI, since I wasn't doing any UOAs.

So, when Audi and other manufacturers found problems, what could they do? Specify synthetic? Sure, assuming that someone chose a synthetic suitable for long drains, and of the appropriate grade. So, they came up with their own specifications.

Personally, at least outside of warranty, I don't think an Audi owner would have any problems running an HDEO for short OCIs, or more regular OCIs on an appropriate synthetic HDEO, such as Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40. This has been done by at least one of our more esteemed members in hot summers in a high output German application.


Problem is not using 15W40 oils in 1991 audis. I used those oils in similar cars.
Problem is that because of all environemnt requirements, fuel efficiency etc, engines became much more sophisticated and sensitive on oils.
Look where are engines today and where they have been in 1991 when it comes to sophistication! I drove last winter in Europe 1.2 TSI VW engine with 105hp. That engine goes better than 1.9tdi and uses almost same amount of fuel. You think you can run 15W40 in that?

 

[kschachn]

Why is a gasoline engine turbo "milder" than a diesel turbo? I still don't get that point you've made twice now, other than you "heard" it on the Internet.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I also doubt that an oil designed for turbo diesels would cause turbo failure in a mild gasser turbo.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Problem is that because of all environemnt requirements, fuel efficiency etc, engines became much more sophisticated and sensitive on oils.
Look where are engines today and where they have been in 1991 when it comes to sophistication! I drove last winter in Europe 1.2 TSI VW engine with 105hp. That engine goes better than 1.9tdi and uses almost same amount of fuel. You think you can run 15W40 in that?


I think you could, at least over shorter OCIs. I wouldn't think it would be optimal, though. Even conventional HDEOs have advanced over the past number of years, particularly in response to emissions standards.

Something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 takes into account all the variables you mentioned, and also meets some pretty stringent specifications. I wouldn't be surprised if it could meet many, if not all, the requirements for certification, if XOM chose to try.

It's got an HTHS of 3.5 or greater. It has low ash. It has sufficient TBN retention. It has sufficient ZDDP.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Problem is that because of all environemnt requirements, fuel efficiency etc, engines became much more sophisticated and sensitive on oils.
Look where are engines today and where they have been in 1991 when it comes to sophistication! I drove last winter in Europe 1.2 TSI VW engine with 105hp. That engine goes better than 1.9tdi and uses almost same amount of fuel. You think you can run 15W40 in that?


I think you could, at least over shorter OCIs. I wouldn't think it would be optimal, though. Even conventional HDEOs have advanced over the past number of years, particularly in response to emissions standards.

Something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 takes into account all the variables you mentioned, and also meets some pretty stringent specifications. I wouldn't be surprised if it could meet many, if not all, the requirements for certification, if XOM chose to try.

It's got an HTHS of 3.5 or greater. It has low ash. It has sufficient TBN retention. It has sufficient ZDDP.

So tell em why would not Mobil send to VW oil for approval?
Do you know how much it costs? 3000 euros to get it and it is good for 3 yrs!

 

[Garak]

For the same reason that they don't try to certify M1 0w-40 with more modern diesel specs - why bother? What particular tests do you think something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 would fail for such certification?

M1 0w-40 is their flagship oil, particularly for European specifications. Why would they wish to cannibalize their own sales by certifying something like Delvac 1, which potentially could be bought cheaper than 0w-40?

Additionally, most people don't like going to truck stops or bulk distributors for their oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
For the same reason that they don't try to certify M1 0w-40 with more modern diesel specs - why bother? What particular tests do you think something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 would fail for such certification?

M1 0w-40 is their flagship oil, particularly for European specifications. Why would they wish to cannibalize their own sales by certifying something like Delvac 1, which potentially could be bought cheaper than 0w-40?

Additionally, most people don't like going to truck stops or bulk distributors for their oil.

You reaally think Mobil does not want to put 505.01 because of Delvac or whatever?
They bother to do 502.00, 505.00 BMW, Mercedes but not 505.01???
Funny!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
You reaally think Mobil does not want to put 505.01 because of Delvac or whatever?
They bother to do 502.00, 505.00 BMW, Mercedes but not 505.01???


I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm pointing out that certifying Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 to a bunch of European gasoline specifications would cannibalize sales from their other varieties.

Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is a dual rated HDEO. It's specifications include SM, CJ-4, ACEA E7/E5, a bunch of North American diesel specifications, and for European manufacturers' specifications, all it has is MB 228.31 and 228.3 and Volvo VDS-4, VDS-3, and VDS-2. I'm assuming that the latter five are all diesel specifications.

The spec sheet is here. I'm still unsure as to why you think such an oil would be absolutely unsuitable for a newer, albeit out of warranty, German turbocharged car. What qualities does it lack?

I remember that a certain esteemed member here went through the same nonsense with his choice of lubes in his premium German automobile. Everyone told him he didn't know what he was talking about, regardless of his credentials in the matter, nor a subsequent approval from the manufacturer in writing.

Again, aside from manufacturer approval (which I'm all for following, particularly under warranty or when one cannot make an informed choice), where is something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 lacking?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
You reaally think Mobil does not want to put 505.01 because of Delvac or whatever?
They bother to do 502.00, 505.00 BMW, Mercedes but not 505.01???


I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm pointing out that certifying Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 to a bunch of European gasoline specifications would cannibalize sales from their other varieties.

Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is a dual rated HDEO. It's specifications include SM, CJ-4, ACEA E7/E5, a bunch of North American diesel specifications, and for European manufacturers' specifications, all it has is MB 228.31 and 228.3 and Volvo VDS-4, VDS-3, and VDS-2. I'm assuming that the latter five are all diesel specifications.

The spec sheet is here. I'm still unsure as to why you think such an oil would be absolutely unsuitable for a newer, albeit out of warranty, German turbocharged car. What qualities does it lack?

I remember that a certain esteemed member here went through the same nonsense with his choice of lubes in his premium German automobile. Everyone told him he didn't know what he was talking about, regardless of his credentials in the matter, nor a subsequent approval from the manufacturer in writing.

Again, aside from manufacturer approval (which I'm all for following, particularly under warranty or when one cannot make an informed choice), where is something like Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 lacking?

Isn't easier form many points for Mobil to sell just one oil as their premium oil for all applications?
Does that mean that Shell Rotella T6 and PU 5W40 are same oils? Why not hten sell PU 5W40 as premium oil for all applications? They save money in marketing, several packages etc, etc.
I am not saying car will die tomorrow if you using Delvacor whatever, but car will run better with oil that meets specific requirements (consumption etc).

 

[stormy]

As far as I know, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 and Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 are the same oils

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why is a gasoline engine turbo "milder" than a diesel turbo? I still don't get that point you've made twice now, other than you "heard" it on the Internet.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I also doubt that an oil designed for turbo diesels would cause turbo failure in a mild gasser turbo.


Mild?
With a few exceptions, the VAG 1.8T typically delivers lower specific output than do some of the stronger normally aspirated engines that have been offered in this market.
A notable exception would be the engine used in the TT Quattro Sport model, which is anything but mild.
There is also nowhere in this market that you can run these cars hard enough for long enough to seriously stress the engines, unless you track them.
OTOH, a diesel truck can be run at a high percentage of its maximum output all day long almost anywhere in North America.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: stormy
As far as I know, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 and Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 are the same oils

I did not mention that, I mentioned Shell Rotella T6!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why is a gasoline engine turbo "milder" than a diesel turbo? I still don't get that point you've made twice now, other than you "heard" it on the Internet.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I also doubt that an oil designed for turbo diesels would cause turbo failure in a mild gasser turbo.


Mild?
With a few exceptions, the VAG 1.8T typically delivers lower specific output than do some of the stronger normally aspirated engines that have been offered in this market.
A notable exception would be the engine used in the TT Quattro Sport model, which is anything but mild.
There is also nowhere in this market that you can run these cars hard enough for long enough to seriously stress the engines, unless you track them.
OTOH, a diesel truck can be run at a high percentage of its maximum output all day long almost anywhere in North America.


You can "doubt" but there is a reason why VW 502.00 is recommended for 1.8T or other engines.
Those engines did not have problems in Europe with sludge etc, because they have been always serviced with synthetic oil that meets VW 502.00 and driving conditions there are much more demanding.

 

[HerrStig]

I find that some German car owners really beileve that they, and their cars, are "special" and really WANT to be told they need special "stuff". The stealer service departments love it.

 

[stormy]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: stormy
As far as I know, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 and Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 are the same oils

I did not mention that, I mentioned Shell Rotella T6!


Okay, a little clearer then:

No its not the same!

 

[fdcg27]

As was posted above by another member, the VW specs exists to provide a simple guideline for oils suitable to the drain intervals VW allows.
There is no need for the owner to actually have any knowledge of oils or how they work, or what TBN or HTHS mean.
It is only necessary that the owner select an oil labeled as meeting the VW spec, and all will be well.
The more knowledgeable or curious owner, either here or in the EU, might venture beyond the cert to find other oils that will work equally well or better.
IOW, what makes an oil suitable for use in VAG engines over longish drain intervals, whether the oil carries the VAG cert or not?
That was my original point.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I find that some German car owners really beileve that they, and their cars, are "special" and really WANT to be told they need special "stuff". The stealer service departments love it.


Well considering state of their auto industry, they might be a "little" better then others. What comes to my mind? Ah yes, Chrysler, GM and Ford.
It is funny that now both GM and Ford are bringing their European line up to the US (Opel and european Ford). Buick is almost completely based on Opel, Ford is bringing Fiest, Focus and now Mondeo (Fusion).
We are not talking about service departments but oils that you can buy pretty much every where!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
As was posted above by another member, the VW specs exists to provide a simple guideline for oils suitable to the drain intervals VW allows.
There is no need for the owner to actually have any knowledge of oils or how they work, or what TBN or HTHS mean.
It is only necessary that the owner select an oil labeled as meeting the VW spec, and all will be well.
The more knowledgeable or curious owner, either here or in the EU, might venture beyond the cert to find other oils that will work equally well or better.
IOW, what makes an oil suitable for use in VAG engines over longish drain intervals, whether the oil carries the VAG cert or not?
That was my original point.


I understand that point, but there are other aditives in oils which makes them different from one another.
I am not saying you are wrong or that you cannot use non certification oils (I just put Rotella T6 in one Passat 1.8T that my friend ownes) but it is better to follow guidelines.
If you think you are saving then you are wrong. I paid 5 quarts of Rotella 28 bucks, while let say Castrol 5W40 was at the same time on sale for $24 for 5 qt.
Just I do not like 5W40 syntec.