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CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids #2562881 03/10/12 12:40 AM
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tdi-rick Offline OP
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This is a bit of a follow up to the Q I posted the other day.

I've looked and can't find a comparison between these specs on gear, bearing wear and spiral bevel gear wear (comparing between the CAT and API spec)

I realise that the CAT spec also addresses wet clutch/brake performance, but I'm not interested in that ATM, purely gear and diff (not hypoid) protection.

It's obviously possible to meet the GL-4 spec without using a sulphur based add package, ie. using a zinc based package more suited to hydraulic use as there are a few (limited) STOU's out there, but how compromised are they trying to meet an engine spec (usually CF or CF-4) as well as the gear/hydraulic requirements ?

How does an MT1 oil rank compared to the previously mentioned specs ?

The older tractor I'm trying to find a fluid for has a dry clutch and brakes and specifies an xW-40 fluid (CD engine oil) for the combined hydraulics/transmission/diff and I'm just trying to find the best compromise I can ATM.

thanks.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #2572123 03/19/12 04:14 AM
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ac_tc Offline
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I cant really ansver your questions but i´ll give my
own findings.
-Stou worked great in my atos gearbox.
-used it in my sons audi, even the servo wich called for sumting special and expensive. No ill effects, i cant blame the oil for the car rusting out can i?
-my ford 4000 tractor from -68 uses it everywere and it just works.
-ive used as top up and exchange oil in both my dodge v8 and atos 1 litre engine, seems to work.
-used it in my aircooled atv, lawn mover etc(engine and tranny combined) it gets hot as [censored] but it seems to work.
If i was forced to use just one oil...stou.


-98 Dodge Durango 5.9 4*4 HDEO 10w- 40 ci4
-04 PT Cruser GT 10w- 40 HDEO ci4
-Everything else HDEO 10w- 40 ci4/STOU 10w-30/THF
Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #2606713 04/22/12 05:16 PM
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widman Offline
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Somewhere I have the original of this in English, but can't find it right now. It shows the piņon wear with 15W-40 and 30 engine oils compared to TO-4 formulations.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #2614283 04/30/12 09:19 PM
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tdi-rick Offline OP
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Excellent, thankyou Richard.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4120862 06/10/16 08:11 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Wow, look what I found for BrocLuno!

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4120989 06/10/16 10:31 PM
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I'm impressed. I had a sneaking suspicion that there was such a lube. TO-2 was usable as an engine oil.

And the CAT specs says that you should now use TO-4, as TO-2 is obsolete. CAT says use TO-4 anywhere TO-2 is called for. For a lot of older tractors, that includes the crankcase ...

Last edited by BrocLuno; 06/10/16 10:32 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4120996 06/10/16 10:44 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Well.... Petro-Canada shows their TO-4s meeting CD & GL-3 too, so better not tell the motorcycle guys.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: widman] #4120999 06/10/16 10:56 PM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted By: widman
Somewhere I have the original of this in English, but can't find it right now. It shows the piņon wear with 15W-40 and 30 engine oils compared to TO-4 formulations.

Thank you, Richard.

Look at the superior performance of a dedicated Cat Transmission Drain Train Oil TDTO TO-4 SAE 30, over engine oil SAE 15W40 and TO-2 SAE 30(CD diesel engine oil ...............
in a typical gear train drive system, with or without wet clutches.

I'm of the opinion that it's actually suitable for DD transfer cases without synchronisers.
JMHO blush

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: BrocLuno] #4121002 06/10/16 11:05 PM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I'm impressed. I had a sneaking suspicion that there was such a lube. TO-2 was usable as an engine oil.


Not true, my friend.

Quote:
And the CAT specs says that you should now use TO-4, as TO-2 is obsolete. CAT says use TO-4 anywhere TO-2 is called for. For a lot of older tractors, that includes the crankcase ...


Not in a crankcase.

In gear train drive systems with gears , yes. blush

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4121004 06/10/16 11:28 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Why not Zeng?
CD is an old Diesel engine oil classification.
TO-4 might pass CE,CF,SA, SB, SC, and maybe SD.
That brings us up to 1972 is spark, and later in Compression ignition.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: userfriendly] #4121207 06/11/16 09:16 AM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Why not Zeng?
CD is an old Diesel engine oil classification.
TO-4 might pass CE,CF,SA, SB, SC, and maybe SD.
That brings us up to 1972 is spark, and later in Compression ignition.

Userfriendly,

A little bit of history .....
a )API CD motor oil specifications were introduced into markets in the States in 1955 (MIL-L-2104C/D) for use in (Naturally Aspirated;Supercharges or Turbo) diesel engines.
b )After which Caterpillar adopted Shear-Stable (powershift) Transmission Oil Specifications in TO-2 (in year 19xx,anybody?) whose approved list includes only Monograde SAE 10W/30/40/50 SAE CD Motor Oils, not multigrade SAE CD if it existed (since year 19xx,anybody).
c )Then comes SAE CE motor oil specs in 1983 (MIL-L-2104D/E) whose Monogrades are similarly approved to Shear-Stable TO-2 specs.
d )In 1989, SAE CF-4 motor oil specs was introduced only in multigrades form , no monogrades were included.
Therefore there wasn't any TO-2 approval for any CF-4 motor oils due to non-compliance of TO-2's requirement of Shear-Stability.
e )Meanwhile, in mainly overcoming short wear life of powershift transmission friction clutch discs with use of TO-2/SAE CD and SAE CE monogrades oils ....
then comes a new superceding specs in Shear-Stable TDTO TO-4 of viscosity grades SAE 10W/30/40 and SAE 50.
No motor oils in any SAE Cx class were ever approved to TDTO TO-4 specifications.
f )These Transmission Drive Train Oil (TDTO) TO-4 are gear train oils and replaces TO-2 in gear train systems and this TO-4 does NOT replace the so-called TO-2 in engine crankcase which belongs to SAE CD/CE monogrades or CF-4 multigrades.
The TO-4 oils are NOT motor engine oils (which falls under SAE CD/CE and CF-4 then).
Hence my remarks in all my previous postings above and other threads as well.
Just my 2 cents. blush


Last edited by zeng; 06/11/16 09:25 AM.
Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4121339 06/11/16 12:16 PM
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userfriendly Offline
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Zeng;
Thank you for the quick reply, I read all of your posts and respect your position.
I understand that Diesel CD engine oils were pressed into service as Cat TO-2,
but due to high friction plate wear, TO-4 was introduced.
Engine oils were no longer approved by Cat for use in their transmissions.
The API Cx approvals could no longer be used as evidence that mono grade Diesel engine oils
were suitable for Cat transmissions after TO-4 was developed.
But... does the TO-4 approval disqualify the fluid as being a suitable engine oil in certain applications?

Why am I asking that question?
Because I tot I taw a puddey tat.
Shannow might say, Look! A bunny.

Last edited by userfriendly; 06/11/16 12:18 PM.
Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4121872 06/12/16 02:40 AM
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Jetronic Offline
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The most interesting thing I learned here is that if you find an engine oil with TO-2 approval, you know it's not got VII...

TO-4 will likely require chemistry more akin to gear oils (low TBN, high TAN) and thus unsuitable for crankcase oils.


AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w30
Hankook Ventus V12 evo2 235/45R17
Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: tdi-rick] #4122513 06/12/16 10:14 PM
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Not sure on that Jetronic, I've only found one so far in my Caltex (year 2000) product data book.

The Super tractor universal 15W40 claimed Cat TO-2, but also claimed a VI of 142.

Agri 424 (transmission and hydraulics only) in my 2009 Mobil catalogue claims TO-2 with a VI of 145 also.

Re: CAT TO-4(M) vs engine oil and API GL4 fluids [Re: Shannow] #4122565 06/12/16 11:38 PM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Not sure on that Jetronic, I've only found one so far in my Caltex (year 2000) product data book.
The Super tractor universal 15W40 claimed Cat TO-2, but also claimed a VI of 142.
Agri 424 (transmission and hydraulics only) in my 2009 Mobil catalogue claims TO-2 with a VI of 145 also.


Correction on my statement on shear-stable TO-2 specifications (and by extension possibly includes TO-4 specification) that is inaccurate and misleading.... Thousand apologies.horse
What I actually meant was TO-2 and TO-4 oils recommended by Caterpillar on my equipments fleet were only in shear-stable monogrades like SAE 10W/30/40/50 .

Yes, I'd actually used UTTO Shell Donax 5W-30 which claims TO-2 and upgrade same to monogrades.
Meanwhile there are a number of monogrades off-road 'transmission oils' that claims exceeding the requirements of SAE CF/CF-2 specs.

So Shannow, you are right with the STUO 15W40 and 424.hide

Edit: http://www.mymesra.com.my/[email protected]_T4.aspx
http://www.mymesra.com.my/[email protected]_CF.aspx
http://www.mymesra.com.my/[email protected]_Turbo_CF-4.aspx

Last edited by zeng; 06/12/16 11:44 PM.
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