Pentosin High Performance II 5W-40 HP for VW GTI ?

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat

that's only your impression. 502.00 specification hasn't gone the way of the dodo yet, as it is still a current specification for VW. If it has, than ALL NEW VW's, Audis, etc would be on 504/507 only.


502.00 is being kept around for markets (i.e., North America) where there is a perception that fuel quality will cause issues with 504 oils in gasoline cars. All new VWs and Audis ARE 504/507 in Europe. The cars aren't any different, the only concern is the fuel here and the fact that we don't use Euro 4 fuel to match the Euro 4 oil.

Quote:
Euro 4 standards came into play in 2005, which was the time when VW updated the 502 specification to meet Euro 4.


You still haven't actually addressed my question. How did you conclude that the latest iteration of 502.00 meets Euro 4 standards? I really doubt that.

I don't think it does, on the SAPS issue alone. If you look at a selection of current 502.00 oils, many have SA of 1% or higher for example, and phosphorus of 0.1% or more. Euro IV oils also have oil life requirements that are not reflected in the more peformance-oriented 502.00

Quote:
M1 ESP 5w30 DOES CARRY 504/507 approval. It is on the current Audi list.


Yes, I know - which is why I corrected myself above. Which you apparently chose to ignore.

 

[dbrowne1]

Also, UG_Passat, if 502.00 was somehow reworked to satisfy Euro IV, why would VW create 504.00? What would be the purpose?

 

[felixthecat]

There are plenty of cars in Europe that currently use VW 502 oils.
Ferrari, AMG etc

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Also, UG_Passat, if 502.00 was somehow reworked to satisfy Euro IV, why would VW create 504.00? What would be the purpose?


502.00 is only a fixed interval oil.

Maybe VW is looking to eventually consolidate to a universal world oil, to eventually sell only one oil world-wide?

The interesting thing with VW specs is, if you noticed, there is usually a diesel equivalent.

502 tends to be paired with 505
503 tends to be paired with 506

With the increased utilization of DPF's and exhaust aftertreatments, 507 needed company, it's paired with 504, to consolidate 502, 503, 505 & 506

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
There are plenty of cars in Europe that currently use VW 502 oils.
Ferrari, AMG etc


Really? Ferrari has their own oils. AMG uses Mercedes-Benz specs. Porsche, even though they are part of VAG, still have their own specs for engines not shared with VW

What is true is, many of these cars overlap with 502.00

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
There are plenty of cars in Europe that currently use VW 502 oils.
Ferrari, AMG etc


There are plenty of pre-2007 VWs and Audis that can still use it too, both here and there.

Which has exactly nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

[felixthecat]

You can use 502 oils in current Audi petrol cars in Europe as long as they are on a fixed interval ( 1 year /10000 miles)

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Also, UG_Passat, if 502.00 was somehow reworked to satisfy Euro IV, why would VW create 504.00? What would be the purpose?


502.00 is only a fixed interval oil.

Maybe VW is looking to eventually consolidate to a universal world oil, to eventually sell only one oil world-wide?

The interesting thing with VW specs is, if you noticed, there is usually a diesel equivalent.

502 tends to be paired with 505
503 tends to be paired with 506

With the increased utilization of DPF's and exhaust aftertreatments, 507 needed company, it's paired with 504, to consolidate 502, 503, 505 & 506


Great. None of which changes the fact that you're utterly wrong about 502.00 - any version of it - meeting the Euro 4 requirements.

It doesn't, for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that 502.00 has a limit of 1.6% on SA whereas Euro 4 requires less than half that. Which is why current M1 0W-40, for example, has 1.3% SA whereas their ESP 504/507 oils are down around 0.6%.

Euro 4 also has a limit on phosphorus, for example. 502.00 doesn't have any limit on P.

VW already has what is essentially a "universal" oil for all 2007+ cars, which is the Castrol SLX Professional LL03 sold at dealers. It even says that right on the back of the bottle. There are some narrow exceptions, but any 2007+ VW/Audi you see on a dealer lot can use it.

 

[felixthecat]

Ferrari and Amg oils are still vw 502 oils whichever way you wish to spin it.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
You can use 502 oils in current Audi petrol cars in Europe as long as they are on a fixed interval ( 1 year /10000 miles)


And the question is, why would you want to do that when there is evidence that a 504 oil will create substantially less intake deposits in DI gasoline engines, and substantially less deposits in the EGR and emissions equipment on diesels?

 

[felixthecat]

but any 2007+ VW/Audi you see on a dealer lot can use it. [/quote]


You cannot be serious

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Ferrari and Amg oils are still vw 502 oils whichever way you wish to spin it.


So let me get this straight - Ferrari and AMG are using a VW oil spec for their cars, and they're somehow exempt from the mandate to make vehicles that use Euro 4 oils that all the other makers have to follow?

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
You can use 502 oils in current Audi petrol cars in Europe as long as they are on a fixed interval ( 1 year /10000 miles)


And the question is, why would you want to do that when there is evidence that a 504 oil will create substantially less intake deposits in DI gasoline engines, and substantially less deposits in the EGR and emissions equipment on diesels?



That is besides the point.
By the way inatke deposits have been a problem irrespective of the oil used. VAG's new DI design incorporates a lower pressure intake port injector.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat


You cannot be serious


504 includes all of the performance specs of 502.

And yes, I'm serious. There was a whole thread on this:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1661982&page=all

Complete with pictures:

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
You can use 502 oils in current Audi petrol cars in Europe as long as they are on a fixed interval ( 1 year /10000 miles)


And the question is, why would you want to do that when there is evidence that a 504 oil will create substantially less intake deposits in DI gasoline engines, and substantially less deposits in the EGR and emissions equipment on diesels?



That is besides the point.
By the way inatke deposits have been a problem irrespective of the oil used. VAG's new DI design incorporates a lower pressure intake port injector.


What? The WHOLE point is that the reason to use 504 oil (on a fixed interval) in North America is to reduce DI intake deposits, which is what the Lubrizol tests showed. Otherwise yes, use a 502 oil.

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Ferrari and Amg oils are still vw 502 oils whichever way you wish to spin it.


So let me get this straight - Ferrari and AMG are using a VW oil spec for their cars, and they're somehow exempt from the mandate to make vehicles that use Euro 4 oils that all the other makers have to follow?



If current oils sold in Europe have to meet Euro 4 specs then.....one would have to assume that VW 502 does also.
However that is not what I am saying because I do not know.
I do know that VW 502 oils are currently sold and usesd in Europe ( Mobil 1 0w-40 stc)

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Ferrari and Amg oils are still vw 502 oils whichever way you wish to spin it.


So let me get this straight - Ferrari and AMG are using a VW oil spec for their cars, and they're somehow exempt from the mandate to make vehicles that use Euro 4 oils that all the other makers have to follow?



If current oils sold in Europe have to meet Euro 4 specs then.....one would have to assume that VW 502 does also.
However that is not what I am saying because I do not know.
I do know that VW 502 oils are currently sold and usesd in Europe ( Mobil 1 0w-40 stc)


Yes, they are still sold there. Because there is still a demand and a use for them in older vehicles. But vehicles made after X date (2007 I believe) are all designed to use Euro 4 oil and Euro 4 fuels. So 502 oils will eventually be phased out, or at least phased into rarity. There's even some nifty graphs in that Lubrizol paper that show the gradual replacement.

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
You can use 502 oils in current Audi petrol cars in Europe as long as they are on a fixed interval ( 1 year /10000 miles)


And the question is, why would you want to do that when there is evidence that a 504 oil will create substantially less intake deposits in DI gasoline engines, and substantially less deposits in the EGR and emissions equipment on diesels?



That is besides the point.
By the way inatke deposits have been a problem irrespective of the oil used. VAG's new DI design incorporates a lower pressure intake port injector.


What? The WHOLE point is that the reason to use 504 oil (on a fixed interval) in North America is to reduce DI intake deposits, which is what the Lubrizol tests showed. Otherwise yes, use a 502 oil.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat


You cannot be serious


504 includes all of the performance specs of 502.

And yes, I'm serious. There was a whole thread on this:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1661982&page=all

Complete with pictures:

You need to read more carefully.
I own a 2008 and a 2009 Audi. Both use VW 502 oils and have a sticker that says that only oils meeting these specs should be used.
2008 is after 2007 right?

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat


You need to read more carefully.
I own a 2008 and a 2009 Audi. Both use VW 502 oils and have a sticker that says that only oils meeting these specs should be used.
2008 is after 2007 right?


No, I don't need to read more carefully. I have both a 2004 and a 2011 Audi. I'm well aware of what the manuals and stickers say in North America.

Again, this has been discussed ad nauseum before. The ONLY reason why they have kept 502 here is due to concerns about fuel. Which is a non-issue on a conservative fixed OCI. The reduction in intake deposits far outweighs any largely theoretical issues with fuel if you're running a 5K mile OCI.

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat


You need to read more carefully.
I own a 2008 and a 2009 Audi. Both use VW 502 oils and have a sticker that says that only oils meeting these specs should be used.
2008 is after 2007 right?


No, I don't need to read more carefully. I have both a 2004 and a 2011 Audi. I'm well aware of what the manuals and stickers say in North America.

Again, this has been discussed ad nauseum before. The ONLY reason why they have kept 502 here is due to concerns about fuel. Which is a non-issue on a conservative fixed OCI. The reduction in intake deposits far outweighs any largely theoretical issues with fuel if you're running a 5K mile OCI.




Sorry..I did not see the word CAN in your statement re post 2007 cars.
None the less Audi still uses 502 oils in NA. I am not sure that I agree with you on the strenghts of the effects of 504 oils on intake deposits.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: felixthecat


You need to read more carefully.
I own a 2008 and a 2009 Audi. Both use VW 502 oils and have a sticker that says that only oils meeting these specs should be used.
2008 is after 2007 right?


No, I don't need to read more carefully. I have both a 2004 and a 2011 Audi. I'm well aware of what the manuals and stickers say in North America.

Again, this has been discussed ad nauseum before. The ONLY reason why they have kept 502 here is due to concerns about fuel. Which is a non-issue on a conservative fixed OCI. The reduction in intake deposits far outweighs any largely theoretical issues with fuel if you're running a 5K mile OCI.




Sorry..I did not see the word CAN in your statement re post 2007 cars.
None the less Audi still uses 502 oils in NA. I am not sure that I agree with you on the strenghts of the effects of 504 oils on intake deposits.


It certainly is not a "settled" issue at this point.

The 2011 (a 2.0TFSI) in my garage is going to have a sample sent to Blackstone shortly which will include TBN and TAN testing. It has 5K on a 504 oil right now.

If that report comes back and shows reasonable numbers with regard to TBN and TAN, as I suspect it will on that interval and the car's typical use, then I'm sticking with it. If not then I will eat a large plate of crow and probably go back to a 502 oil.