T6 rorella 5w40 in my 01 7.3 power stroke
- Thread starter silver1
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Go for it! It is a great lube for that engine. If you are doing major towing and hauling I would stick with the 15w40 though.
Great for cold starts this time of year if the 7.3 suffers from stiction like my old 6.0 did.
Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
FALSE! the 5w40 is a synthetic therefore will hold up to towing/heat better than a 15w40 dino. Please only post if you know what you are talking about and not posting just to post.
Sorry DrDusty, Ford recommends to use 15w40 for towing and heavy duty use. The newer updated engines can run on 5w40 in severe service category. Most people prefer to use 15w40 all year and get 300+ thousand miles on the engine. 5w40 is fine but if you are towing regularly stick with the recommended 15w40.
The oil spec sheet in the owners manual will validate what I am saying.
FALSE! the 5w40 is a synthetic therefore will hold up to towing/heat better than a 15w40 dino. Please only post if you know what you are talking about and not posting just to post.
Sorry DrDusty, Ford recommends to use 15w40 for towing and heavy duty use. The newer updated engines can run on 5w40 in severe service category. Most people prefer to use 15w40 all year and get 300+ thousand miles on the engine. 5w40 is fine but if you are towing regularly stick with the recommended 15w40.
The oil spec sheet in the owners manual will validate what I am saying.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Welcome Silver1. (two days and 19 posts? you've been busy ...)
Let me break out of this silliness and bring in some reality.
The 7.3L is a stout engine; it's not going to self-destruct by using dino oil. There are rigs out there with 500k+ miles on them using good ol' dino oil.
Synthetics are useful for extending the OCIs. That is their most advantageous characteristic.
They can also offer extreme cold start advantages, but I can also tell you that is not a "needed" trait here (because I, too, live in IN as does the OP).
Depending upon the OP's OCI duration, and total annual mileage, he has a couple of choices.
If he does only one OCI per year - I'd suggest either 15w-40 or 10w-30 dino. The protection factor will be the same. UOAs prove it, even if some people don't want to admit it. I would tend towards the 10w-30, but some people cannot get past the "thin oil sucks" fear.
If he does more than one OCI per year, I suggest using a 10w-30 dino HDEO in winter and 15w-40 in summer. The thinner fluid will give better starting and less "romp" in the HEUI system.
And please allow me to cut you "shear fear" people off at the pass, before you even mention it. Oil shearing is common in HEUI; true. But it rarely, (probably never?), manifests into wear metal spikes; I have yet to see a UOA where the shearing of grade resulted in a jump in wear metals. Further, while a HEUI PSD will shear a 40 grade down to a 30 grade, it won't shear a 30 grade down much, if any, at all. It's as if the HEUI 7.3L and 6.0L systems simply prefer a thinner grade. There are some members here that run 10w-30 HDEO in their PSDs and have great success with good starts, low wear, and low contamination.
For those of you who fear thinner conventional fluid, because you don't think it's up to the towing task, why don't you read over my dino oil UOA, before you speak. Also review Ponch's UOAs, and others. I personally FLOGGED the living daylights out of my conventional Rotella 10w-30 oil last summer in the heat of UT and AZ, as well as the mountains of CO. I got excellent results, and could not have purposely been harder on my oil no matter how hard I tried. Read these:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966220&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2425542&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2364435#Post2364435
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179591&page=1
Those UOAs are just a small sample of what's out there. Dinos, thinner grades, Dmax and PSD and Cummins. They all show HDEOs capable. Heck, BigGreyMegacab is running 20k mile OCIs on dino oil! I tried my best to frag my lube, and short of setting it on fire with a torch, could not break it down.
The KEY to UNDERSTANDING is how they are used, and what the results show. PUH-LEEZE do not spout off about "synthetics" are better, worse, etc until you read and understand the results from the environments in which they are used.
Silver1 - if you run long OCIs, then a synthetic might make sense. If not, then just use any quality dino oil you can find. The engine won't know the difference, but your wallet will. It would be my suggestionion that you run 10w-30 HDEO and see how it treats your engine; I think you'll be pleasantly supprised. Run a few OCIs, then get a UOA or two. Why not use your own personal data to decide, rather than a bunch of internet mythology? Further, you can peruse the HDEO UOA forum here. There are plenty of examples for you to review.
But hey, why let facts and data get in the way of HDEO synthetic mythology and rhetoric?
I now return you to your regularly scheduled synthetic lube bigotry and grade mongering.
Let me break out of this silliness and bring in some reality.
The 7.3L is a stout engine; it's not going to self-destruct by using dino oil. There are rigs out there with 500k+ miles on them using good ol' dino oil.
Synthetics are useful for extending the OCIs. That is their most advantageous characteristic.
They can also offer extreme cold start advantages, but I can also tell you that is not a "needed" trait here (because I, too, live in IN as does the OP).
Depending upon the OP's OCI duration, and total annual mileage, he has a couple of choices.
If he does only one OCI per year - I'd suggest either 15w-40 or 10w-30 dino. The protection factor will be the same. UOAs prove it, even if some people don't want to admit it. I would tend towards the 10w-30, but some people cannot get past the "thin oil sucks" fear.
If he does more than one OCI per year, I suggest using a 10w-30 dino HDEO in winter and 15w-40 in summer. The thinner fluid will give better starting and less "romp" in the HEUI system.
And please allow me to cut you "shear fear" people off at the pass, before you even mention it. Oil shearing is common in HEUI; true. But it rarely, (probably never?), manifests into wear metal spikes; I have yet to see a UOA where the shearing of grade resulted in a jump in wear metals. Further, while a HEUI PSD will shear a 40 grade down to a 30 grade, it won't shear a 30 grade down much, if any, at all. It's as if the HEUI 7.3L and 6.0L systems simply prefer a thinner grade. There are some members here that run 10w-30 HDEO in their PSDs and have great success with good starts, low wear, and low contamination.
For those of you who fear thinner conventional fluid, because you don't think it's up to the towing task, why don't you read over my dino oil UOA, before you speak. Also review Ponch's UOAs, and others. I personally FLOGGED the living daylights out of my conventional Rotella 10w-30 oil last summer in the heat of UT and AZ, as well as the mountains of CO. I got excellent results, and could not have purposely been harder on my oil no matter how hard I tried. Read these:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966220&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2425542&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2364435#Post2364435
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179591&page=1
Those UOAs are just a small sample of what's out there. Dinos, thinner grades, Dmax and PSD and Cummins. They all show HDEOs capable. Heck, BigGreyMegacab is running 20k mile OCIs on dino oil! I tried my best to frag my lube, and short of setting it on fire with a torch, could not break it down.
The KEY to UNDERSTANDING is how they are used, and what the results show. PUH-LEEZE do not spout off about "synthetics" are better, worse, etc until you read and understand the results from the environments in which they are used.
Silver1 - if you run long OCIs, then a synthetic might make sense. If not, then just use any quality dino oil you can find. The engine won't know the difference, but your wallet will. It would be my suggestionion that you run 10w-30 HDEO and see how it treats your engine; I think you'll be pleasantly supprised. Run a few OCIs, then get a UOA or two. Why not use your own personal data to decide, rather than a bunch of internet mythology? Further, you can peruse the HDEO UOA forum here. There are plenty of examples for you to review.
But hey, why let facts and data get in the way of HDEO synthetic mythology and rhetoric?
I now return you to your regularly scheduled synthetic lube bigotry and grade mongering.
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dnewton3
Staff member
You know, your sense of humor is not lost on me!
Ironically, people would presume I'm "anti-synthetic", but that's not the case at all. In fact, I use sythetics in some of my applications. But I use them wisely, with the understanding of their benefits and limitations. I have actually recommended Amsoil (!) to my neighbor based upon his wife's annual mileage pattern and his maintenance plan.
Any product can be over-utilized or under-utilized.
Synthetics have two distinct advantages, but ONLY if you are in an environment to capitalize on that advantage. They are most accurately described as thermal stress (temps) and exposure duration (mileage).
Extreme cold. I mean E-X-T-R-E-M-E, butt-ugly, stupidly cold. Here, the cold cranking (more inportant to a diesel) and pumpability (pressure fed lube) are important. But that ain't a big deal in Indiana folks; I know, I live here.
Extended OCIs. Greatly extended. Not, "Oh my goodness, I might run the risk of going over my normal OCI by 500 miles".
OCI duration is set by one of three criteria:
1) OEM OCI suggested limits
2) UOA data trends and logical condemnation limits
3) SWAG'ing it
Most people use #1 or #3.
#1 is proven to be safe and effective (if a bit wasteful) with conventional fluids.
#3 is proven to be safe and effective (but NOT wasteful) with any fluid, because you maximize the run
#2 is where a lot of people fall, and they (erroneously) believe they can make things "better" by using synthetics for any situation or duration.
If you're not in a stupid-cold area (the OP is not) and you don't intend to GREATLY extend the OCI (we don't know if the OP will do so or not), then just why would synthetics be "better" or "needed" in this case?
The truthful answer is they're likely not needed in this case. That is supported by facts gleaned from good, solid data. The rest is just bovine-poo.
Ironically, people would presume I'm "anti-synthetic", but that's not the case at all. In fact, I use sythetics in some of my applications. But I use them wisely, with the understanding of their benefits and limitations. I have actually recommended Amsoil (!) to my neighbor based upon his wife's annual mileage pattern and his maintenance plan.
Any product can be over-utilized or under-utilized.
Synthetics have two distinct advantages, but ONLY if you are in an environment to capitalize on that advantage. They are most accurately described as thermal stress (temps) and exposure duration (mileage).
Extreme cold. I mean E-X-T-R-E-M-E, butt-ugly, stupidly cold. Here, the cold cranking (more inportant to a diesel) and pumpability (pressure fed lube) are important. But that ain't a big deal in Indiana folks; I know, I live here.
Extended OCIs. Greatly extended. Not, "Oh my goodness, I might run the risk of going over my normal OCI by 500 miles".
OCI duration is set by one of three criteria:
1) OEM OCI suggested limits
2) UOA data trends and logical condemnation limits
3) SWAG'ing it
Most people use #1 or #3.
#1 is proven to be safe and effective (if a bit wasteful) with conventional fluids.
#3 is proven to be safe and effective (but NOT wasteful) with any fluid, because you maximize the run
#2 is where a lot of people fall, and they (erroneously) believe they can make things "better" by using synthetics for any situation or duration.
If you're not in a stupid-cold area (the OP is not) and you don't intend to GREATLY extend the OCI (we don't know if the OP will do so or not), then just why would synthetics be "better" or "needed" in this case?
The truthful answer is they're likely not needed in this case. That is supported by facts gleaned from good, solid data. The rest is just bovine-poo.
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I just got around to getting back to this thread, all I can say is WOW! I started quite the debate. Let me fill in some of the details on my truck. It's an f350 4x4 crew cab single rear wheels I didnt really want a dualey she's got 155k ! put mabey 5-7k A year I do tow a toy hauler with a couple of harleys. gvw of the trayler about 10000 lbs We like to go to the tenn. moutains as often as we can . btw I flue to Texas to buy this baby about 4-5 years ago so shes rust free! And you should see the cow pusure bumper on it, took out a deer @ 55 mph one night, felt like a speed bump and not a scratch. ps pardon my spelling I quit using google because of their new privicy rules and I can't find a spell checker I like .Thanks to everyone who posted, Let the debate go on!
I run a 6.0 PSD EVERY DAY, and if it had even 10W30 dino oil it would buck and smoke huge amounts of fuel when left out overnight, temps below freezing, with no block heater or oil pan heater. Does much better on 5W40 (Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme)-but your 7.3 may not have as troublesome a HEUI system as the 6.0 does. BTW, it works HARD every day of it's life, never below 9000 lbs., and at 256K it is on it's ORIGINAL variable-vane turbo!
dnewton3
Staff member
Given that you run 5-7k miles a year, you'll only need one OCI.
I'd suggest trying 10w-30 convenional oil year round. Run a UOA or two and see how well it really does. Don't let subjective judgement get in the way of facts and reality.
You could stick with 15w-40 as well, but you'll get a bit of the "romp" from the HEUI in the cold.
Either way, you don't need synthetic, given the conditions and environment and distance you describe.
BTW - the HEUI systems for the 7.3PSD and 6.0PSD are similar, but not the same. The 7.3 uses oil pressure to open the injector pintle and heavy springs to close the pintle against the seat, where the 6.0 uses oil pressure for both. If you get some poor injection issues with a 7.3L, it's often a broken spring and not oil that is the problem.
I'd suggest trying 10w-30 convenional oil year round. Run a UOA or two and see how well it really does. Don't let subjective judgement get in the way of facts and reality.
You could stick with 15w-40 as well, but you'll get a bit of the "romp" from the HEUI in the cold.
Either way, you don't need synthetic, given the conditions and environment and distance you describe.
BTW - the HEUI systems for the 7.3PSD and 6.0PSD are similar, but not the same. The 7.3 uses oil pressure to open the injector pintle and heavy springs to close the pintle against the seat, where the 6.0 uses oil pressure for both. If you get some poor injection issues with a 7.3L, it's often a broken spring and not oil that is the problem.
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He can use whatever he wants. 5w40 would be fine, so would conventional HDEO 10w30 or 15w40. It is his choice and you are getting a rage lately. I see your point fully, but it is choice, his original question was basically asking if he could use 5w40. Yes he can. Whether it is overkill and a waste of money is his business, and I sure don't think it would hurt. I also mentioned how people stick with conventional 15w40 and their engines last 300+k miles. It is choice. I am glad you are presenting the other side but lately you have been "lambasting" people who choose a group III over a group II+. It is not that big of a deal.
dnewton3
Staff member
He came here for advice, didn't he?
Waste is a big deal to many people. Especially when that waste does not manifest into any tangible benefit.
I completely, whole-heartedly agree that he can choose what he wants. But what he "wants" and what he "needs" are two entirely separate things.
Some people will tell him what he wants to hear. Others will tell him what he needs to hear. Bitoger's don't let other Bitoger's waste lubes! Regardless of base stock.
For you to say that you "sure don't think it would hurt" is to place your valuation of money into his pocket. That's no better or worse than me warning against waste, is it not?
I can show factual basis of how synthetics do not pay for themselves in short-to-modeate OCIs.
Analogy time:
You work in the gun store behind the counter. A customer walks in and asks about a .308Win and .30-06; both are popular hunting calibers and have had a ongoing raging debate for decades as to which is "better". He says he overhead two guys talking about them, about all the benefits, and all the joys of each.
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR. Just becasuse you can sell him on a big gun, does not mean he "needs" it for his purpose.
This guys wants some advice. Telling him that syn will work in this situation is only HALF the answer. The other half is telling him why it's not one of the better choices, given his situation. Tell him why it's not a wise choice, no matter how badly he may want it. Just because he's heard of synthetics, doesn't mean he needs them.
That goes for all people and products.
The right tool for the job isn't always the most expensive tool, regardless of how badly someone "wants" it.
Waste is a big deal to many people. Especially when that waste does not manifest into any tangible benefit.
I completely, whole-heartedly agree that he can choose what he wants. But what he "wants" and what he "needs" are two entirely separate things.
Some people will tell him what he wants to hear. Others will tell him what he needs to hear. Bitoger's don't let other Bitoger's waste lubes! Regardless of base stock.
For you to say that you "sure don't think it would hurt" is to place your valuation of money into his pocket. That's no better or worse than me warning against waste, is it not?
I can show factual basis of how synthetics do not pay for themselves in short-to-modeate OCIs.
Analogy time:
You work in the gun store behind the counter. A customer walks in and asks about a .308Win and .30-06; both are popular hunting calibers and have had a ongoing raging debate for decades as to which is "better". He says he overhead two guys talking about them, about all the benefits, and all the joys of each.
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR. Just becasuse you can sell him on a big gun, does not mean he "needs" it for his purpose.
This guys wants some advice. Telling him that syn will work in this situation is only HALF the answer. The other half is telling him why it's not one of the better choices, given his situation. Tell him why it's not a wise choice, no matter how badly he may want it. Just because he's heard of synthetics, doesn't mean he needs them.
That goes for all people and products.
The right tool for the job isn't always the most expensive tool, regardless of how badly someone "wants" it.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR.
There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to gun. If he wants to shoot that squirrel at 500 yards then there is no 22LR that can do the job. The right tool for the job is the one that can get the job done, no matter what. Cost is a separate issue and not everyone cares about cost.
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR.
There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to gun. If he wants to shoot that squirrel at 500 yards then there is no 22LR that can do the job. The right tool for the job is the one that can get the job done, no matter what. Cost is a separate issue and not everyone cares about cost.
personally I like 30.06 but I shoot more .308 why, its cheaper! Ive been running 15w40 rotella for a long time with no complaints. My original question was will I get better protection pulling 10000 lbs through the mountains, @ $10 more a gallon for T6 I can afford that once a year. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also the dino oil gets black pretty quick Ive been told this is normal, but this is my 1'st diesel and that's a little unsettling. Thanks for all the replies!
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: silver1
My original question was will I get better protection pulling 10000 lbs through the mountains, @ $10 more a gallon for T6 I can afford that once a year. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also the dino oil gets black pretty quick Ive been told this is normal, but this is my 1'st diesel and that's a little unsettling. Thanks for all the replies!
The color of the oil is not a reliable indicator of the lifecycle of the oil. Black oil simply means the soot is being held in suspension, right where it belongs.
As for the quest for "better" protection, you must define what the term "better" means to you.
I will presume you mean "less wear". That is typical of most people. They are under the influence of synthetic marketing hype that synthetics are "better" in all situations. But nothing could be further from the truth.
Generally, synthteics cannot give less wear during a normal OCi. But what they can do is give that same level of protection for a much longer exposure duration. It is more appropriate to state that synthetics are "longer lasting" when you are seeking "better" performance.
So, the short, simple answer to your question about it being "better" completely rests on one question:
Will you be extending your OCI wasy past OEM limits?
If yes, then syntheics are going to have a clear advantage.
If no, then there is ZERO advantage given your operating conditions, and it won't be any "better" than before.
My original question was will I get better protection pulling 10000 lbs through the mountains, @ $10 more a gallon for T6 I can afford that once a year. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also the dino oil gets black pretty quick Ive been told this is normal, but this is my 1'st diesel and that's a little unsettling. Thanks for all the replies!
The color of the oil is not a reliable indicator of the lifecycle of the oil. Black oil simply means the soot is being held in suspension, right where it belongs.
As for the quest for "better" protection, you must define what the term "better" means to you.
I will presume you mean "less wear". That is typical of most people. They are under the influence of synthetic marketing hype that synthetics are "better" in all situations. But nothing could be further from the truth.
Generally, synthteics cannot give less wear during a normal OCi. But what they can do is give that same level of protection for a much longer exposure duration. It is more appropriate to state that synthetics are "longer lasting" when you are seeking "better" performance.
So, the short, simple answer to your question about it being "better" completely rests on one question:
Will you be extending your OCI wasy past OEM limits?
If yes, then syntheics are going to have a clear advantage.
If no, then there is ZERO advantage given your operating conditions, and it won't be any "better" than before.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR.
There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to gun. If he wants to shoot that squirrel at 500 yards then there is no 22LR that can do the job. The right tool for the job is the one that can get the job done, no matter what. Cost is a separate issue and not everyone cares about cost.
Wrong, again. Both the large caliber rounds would destroy any amount of usable squirrel meat, no matter what the distance. My analogy is predicated on the realities of life. You are trying to manipulate the situation, and yet ignore the quest. In fact, using a high caliber, high power weapon has many risks such as over-penetration and extreme distance down-range unknown targets. Your comment that there is "no such thing as overkill when it comes to a gun" is untrue, and a bit disconcerting. I suppose you'd support using a .375H&H for rodent hunting in the barn? Or, using a .454 Casull for teaching a person how to shoot a hand-gun? You see, the realities of life eschew your comments. You're trying to salvage a bad position, and actually making it worse.
There are certainly times when using synthetics make sense. I, myself, use synthetics in some of my application. But they are NOT a one-size-fits-all solution. There are many times when they show ZERO advantage for wear and thermal protection. In this situation, there is no advantage to using a synthetic, no matter how extreme you want to pretend the circumstances are.
I would challenge you to put forth real data, factual UOAs to prove your position. In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics when one chooses a properly spec'd grade for the application. All one has to do is look over the UOAs here and find the realities of life.
Here are some UOAs to prove my point:
Powerstroke on 10w-30 dino oil:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966220&page=1
My personal Dmax on dino 10w-30 that I absolutely flogged in the heat of UT and AZ while towing
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
Here's Ponch's 15w-40 dino he hammered with a lot of towing
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2364435#Post2364435
Here is a set up for nearly 20k miles on dino oil with no bypass filter!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179591&page=1
Now here are some diesel/synthetic UOAs ...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2284941&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2475696&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2228777&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2386394&page=1 (with bypass no less)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2376358#Post2376358
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2489267#Post2489267
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379331&page=1 (6k miles towing with RL and a bypass)
Look at these two really closely:
RL synthetic oil with bypass filtration -
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379331&page=1
My normal dino oil 10w-30 with normal filter
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results.
He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection. All the indicators (wear metals, insolubles, FP, vis, etc) indicate that both fluid were in decent shape and well within one std dev of universal averages. In fact, I purposely ran my oil down and never added one drop of make up oil. Had I added oil, it would have had even "better" numbers by diluting the ppm counts and insolubles! These two examples are nearly identical, except he spent more than 4x more money to get the exact same results!
HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR CAN IT BE?
So, kindly show me just where the "better" effects are when using synthetics. Please point out exactly where the statistical advantage exists in the second set of examples versus the first four. The VAST majority of UOAs show that the benefit to synthetic is longer OCIs, but that simply does not exist in normal OCIs. If you think I stacked the deck, then point out some UOAs here that match the OPs conditions, and would support your position. Show me conclusive proof that using a synthetic in a normal OCI gave statistically less wear (outside of the standard deviation of universal averages). I challenge you, or anyone, to prove it.
The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme themal concern. The OP is going to do 5-7k miles a year. Under these circumstances (even including the towing) there is NO advantage, no matter how much hype and rhetoric you want to heap into the situation.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
As the seller, wouldn't you have some responsibility to first ask what he's hunting? And whe he says "squirrel", don't you think both the .308 and .30-06 are just a bit overkill? It would be prudent to offer a small bore shotgun or .22LR.
There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to gun. If he wants to shoot that squirrel at 500 yards then there is no 22LR that can do the job. The right tool for the job is the one that can get the job done, no matter what. Cost is a separate issue and not everyone cares about cost.
Wrong, again. Both the large caliber rounds would destroy any amount of usable squirrel meat, no matter what the distance. My analogy is predicated on the realities of life. You are trying to manipulate the situation, and yet ignore the quest. In fact, using a high caliber, high power weapon has many risks such as over-penetration and extreme distance down-range unknown targets. Your comment that there is "no such thing as overkill when it comes to a gun" is untrue, and a bit disconcerting. I suppose you'd support using a .375H&H for rodent hunting in the barn? Or, using a .454 Casull for teaching a person how to shoot a hand-gun? You see, the realities of life eschew your comments. You're trying to salvage a bad position, and actually making it worse.
There are certainly times when using synthetics make sense. I, myself, use synthetics in some of my application. But they are NOT a one-size-fits-all solution. There are many times when they show ZERO advantage for wear and thermal protection. In this situation, there is no advantage to using a synthetic, no matter how extreme you want to pretend the circumstances are.
I would challenge you to put forth real data, factual UOAs to prove your position. In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics when one chooses a properly spec'd grade for the application. All one has to do is look over the UOAs here and find the realities of life.
Here are some UOAs to prove my point:
Powerstroke on 10w-30 dino oil:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966220&page=1
My personal Dmax on dino 10w-30 that I absolutely flogged in the heat of UT and AZ while towing
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
Here's Ponch's 15w-40 dino he hammered with a lot of towing
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2364435#Post2364435
Here is a set up for nearly 20k miles on dino oil with no bypass filter!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179591&page=1
Now here are some diesel/synthetic UOAs ...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2284941&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2475696&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2228777&page=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2386394&page=1 (with bypass no less)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2376358#Post2376358
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2489267#Post2489267
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379331&page=1 (6k miles towing with RL and a bypass)
Look at these two really closely:
RL synthetic oil with bypass filtration -
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379331&page=1
My normal dino oil 10w-30 with normal filter
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1
Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results.
He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection. All the indicators (wear metals, insolubles, FP, vis, etc) indicate that both fluid were in decent shape and well within one std dev of universal averages. In fact, I purposely ran my oil down and never added one drop of make up oil. Had I added oil, it would have had even "better" numbers by diluting the ppm counts and insolubles! These two examples are nearly identical, except he spent more than 4x more money to get the exact same results!
HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR CAN IT BE?
So, kindly show me just where the "better" effects are when using synthetics. Please point out exactly where the statistical advantage exists in the second set of examples versus the first four. The VAST majority of UOAs show that the benefit to synthetic is longer OCIs, but that simply does not exist in normal OCIs. If you think I stacked the deck, then point out some UOAs here that match the OPs conditions, and would support your position. Show me conclusive proof that using a synthetic in a normal OCI gave statistically less wear (outside of the standard deviation of universal averages). I challenge you, or anyone, to prove it.
The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme themal concern. The OP is going to do 5-7k miles a year. Under these circumstances (even including the towing) there is NO advantage, no matter how much hype and rhetoric you want to heap into the situation.
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The problem here is that you set all the parameters to suit your assumption. Why do you assume I eat squirrel meat when I just want to get rid of them? I use a 30-378 for varmint hunting because close enough some times will also kill compare to a 22LR.
Here are some more parameters set by you:
1. "In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics." Why do you assume everyone is using synthetic in short-to-moderate OCIs? What about gross vehicle weight? Vehicle usage/purpose?
2. "Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results." How do you know this for sure? What is your definition of "similar" in scientific terms?
3. "He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection". Again, you got all of this from anecdotal UOAs? We are not talking about the same engine on the same dino doing back to back testing of dino versus synthetic. All you are doing is guessing.
4. "The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme thermal concern". A data point of one, whoopee.
Unlike you, I don't claims synthetic is better because I do not have personal scientific data to backup my claims. Instead, I prefer you to people who manufacture oils for a living.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx
"Synthetic motor oils – such as Mobil 1 – contain more highly refined base oils than those used in conventional mineral oils, which can offer you better protection and performance."
http://www.shell.com/home/content/produc.../synthetic_oil/
"For example, compared with a normal API SG/CD mineral oil, a fully synthetic engine oil such as Shell Helix Ultra is found to deliver: Up to five times better cleansing. Up to three times more protection. Less than half as much engine wear."
There are more examples but I think you got the point. The oil manufacturers do not narrow the scope of synthetic oil usage by stating the operational parameters that only fit a small group of users.
Again, if you want to talk about cost then it is another matter altogether.
Here are some more parameters set by you:
1. "In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics." Why do you assume everyone is using synthetic in short-to-moderate OCIs? What about gross vehicle weight? Vehicle usage/purpose?
2. "Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results." How do you know this for sure? What is your definition of "similar" in scientific terms?
3. "He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection". Again, you got all of this from anecdotal UOAs? We are not talking about the same engine on the same dino doing back to back testing of dino versus synthetic. All you are doing is guessing.
4. "The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme thermal concern". A data point of one, whoopee.
Unlike you, I don't claims synthetic is better because I do not have personal scientific data to backup my claims. Instead, I prefer you to people who manufacture oils for a living.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx
"Synthetic motor oils – such as Mobil 1 – contain more highly refined base oils than those used in conventional mineral oils, which can offer you better protection and performance."
http://www.shell.com/home/content/produc.../synthetic_oil/
"For example, compared with a normal API SG/CD mineral oil, a fully synthetic engine oil such as Shell Helix Ultra is found to deliver: Up to five times better cleansing. Up to three times more protection. Less than half as much engine wear."
There are more examples but I think you got the point. The oil manufacturers do not narrow the scope of synthetic oil usage by stating the operational parameters that only fit a small group of users.
Again, if you want to talk about cost then it is another matter altogether.
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