Returned a broken Craftsman ratchet..

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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
Not all HF stuff is made in China. Most if not all of the Pittsburgh Pro line is made in Taiwan. Big difference politically, and generally speaking the Taiwan quality is better.


OK, but neither of those locations are in America.


Hmmm... neither is Germany. But that doesn't stop you from owning a an off-shore BMW.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Fastenal is up here too, they are very similar to Brafasco. Do you have one locally that you could check out?


Yeah, there are two Fastenal shops in town. I'll check them out.
 
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
Not all HF stuff is made in China. Most if not all of the Pittsburgh Pro line is made in Taiwan. Big difference politically, and generally speaking the Taiwan quality is better.


OK, but neither of those locations are in America.


Hmmm... neither is Germany. But that doesn't stop you from owning a an off-shore BMW.


BMW stands for "Bayerische Motoren Werke", which doesn't sound very American now does it? Does that, rolling off your tongue pull at your heart strings? No?

Exactly.

Also, last time I checked, Germany was a first-world nation with a similar cost of living to Canada.

So what exactly was your point?

I mean, I don't have any "German Freight" stores that I can walk into and buy inexpensive German products "right off the boat". No, if I want to buy something German, I'll be paying just as much, if not more as I would be for an American product. And it will be of comparable quality.

There is no "dumping" of German goods on the shores of other nations, and companies like Craftsman sure as heck aren't out-sourcing to Germany to save money.

So I'm not quite sure what kind of strawman you are trying to conjure up here, but I'm interested to hear it.
 
I'm not conjuring any strawman argument. You're implying that anything from HF is offshore junk. I'm saying that's not the case. Taiwan isn't a third world country.

You're stating everyone should buy American. Great. But you come off somewhat hypocritical with your German car.

That's my point.
 
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
I'm not conjuring any strawman argument. You're implying that anything from HF is offshore junk. I'm saying that's not the case. Taiwan isn't a third world country.

You're stating everyone should buy American. Great. But you come off somewhat hypocritical with your German car.

That's my point.


I'm not stating everybody should buy American, I think it is in everybody's best interest to shop first-world. That includes Canada (I'm not American in case you didn't notice), Germany, Japan, France (Michelin for example), England....etc.

I'm also not implying anything. I stated that Harbour Freight sells off-shore products, if that is not the case, please give me an example of something sold there that is produced in Canada or the United States.

BTW, where did I state Taiwan was third-world?
 
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
OK, I guess I misunderstood your message, mea culpa. No reason to argue over nothing, I agree with you in principle.

I do believe HF sells some USA made products:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2111880&page=all


Short list! But at least there are a couple of items (lubes and air hoses).

And yeah, sorry if I was coming off all high and mighty, that wasn't my intent. I simply feel that first-world citizens, if they want to maintain that status, need to shop first-world. Everybody in that boat is on a level playing field, so if somebody chooses to buy German or Japanese, it isn't because it was a fraction of the price, and it wasn't due to a company out-sourcing there for cheap labour either.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: GMBoy

I don't quite know what kind of day you had, but you sure lashed out on me for quite a few things that YOU have no idea about concerning me.


Actually I had a pretty decent day
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Quote:
Is your point correct, yes. I agree with your overall point - but leave me out of it. I never said anything about owning or buying HF tools over American made tools when you can find them.


I apologize for singling you out, that wasn't my intention. I quoted your post because the underlying message I got from the posts made by yourself and Tig was something I feel is a core issue regarding the entire domination of domestic shelves with Chinese products.

Quote:
Getting that point straight - let me now explain that my point about Pittsburg (Harbor Freight) tools actually being pretty good IN NO WAY said he y'all lets go an buy them and put America out of work. We were talking about CRAFTSMAN having rachets made in CHINA - and they are NOT made as well as the older USA ones. MY point again - if you are going to by a China Craftsman, why not just get a China HF??? Better made, less price and same warranty.


OK, but in that vein, why not boycott all of them? I won't buy Chinese Craftsman either. Instead I'll look to tools like those posted by Merkava: Inexpensive, American-made tools
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Quote:
That was the extent of my comment, man. You really went of the deep end and you really don't even know me. I buy AMERICAN made items as much as possible...tool wise...my tool box is made up of roughly 60% Craftsman, 25% Snap-on, 10% OTC and the rest (yeah) Harbor Freight for those "only need one use tools".


Come on, I didn't make it personal enough to make it sound like I was trying to say I "knew you". And my intention was not to single out YOU, it was to single out that ideology expressed or implied in your post that the Chinese stuff is "good enough". Because that's the problem!

It is complacency! Once people just start shrugging it off that "everything is going Chinese and I might as well buy it from China Freight" then they've won!

Quote:
There was nothing wrong in my acknowledging that HF actually had a quality improvement in their tools. I personally think Snap On is overpriced, but I have spent the money on them for tools that I use most and don't mind spending more for quality. But, Snap On is not so much better for the money than a lesser brand for the average DIY'er and that is where HF deals with most. Just like you say I want people to by GM, sure - but we still need to make a quality car at a FAIR price...why don't some of our USA tool makers bring some jobs BACK here (Craftsman)??


I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with acknowledging that the Chinese clones are getting better in quality. However, you didn't follow that statement with anything regarding the fear that all brands are headed this way or something in that vein that shows that you don't support the direction things are going, which is why I quoted you!

Regarding Snap-On, I agree! They are pricey. But there are PLENTY of other American brands out there to choose from
thumbsup2.gif


And to follow this for a second, why is it when somebody mentions not buying Chinese the people who oppose that statement ALWAYS bring up the fact that Snap-On is too expensive. Nobody said to buy Snap-On! I know I sure as heck didn't!

That's like saying "German cars are too expensive, so I buy Tata motors". Somebody takes issue with that, and the response is "have you priced a Bugatti Veyron lately?, JEEZ!".

It's like
crazy2.gif
?????????

Last time I checked, Snap-on was just one of MANY US tool brands. As I mentioned earlier, when I need something less expensive, I'll buy KD.

Quote:
This is all related to the "global economy" brain washing out nation has been subjected to by big gov't and big business. I am all for global economies as long as we build here and ship abroad. But this is not the case - profits rule the roost.

Last - In case you have not noticed - the Chinese practically already own us.

In the future, maybe make your post a bit more broad rather than funneling it all to one person.


Again, that wasn't my intention. And I certainly have issue with the direction "globalization" has taken us, and continues to take us. It is a frustrating topic for me, even when I'm having a good day
wink.gif


Sorry for singling you out
cheers3.gif




Well, in retrospect - I guess it was me who is having the bad day! I apologize for coming off hard. I just came back to reread my post and delete it but it was too late.

Cheers to you
cheers3.gif
 
I just wished that more people who buy tools at HF and after they inevitably break or display unacceptably low quality at any price would return them and maybe for a full refund. This would accomplish a few things. Either they would have to improve the quality or they would eventually go out of business or at the least there would be less profiting from selling disposable junk.

I get the sense that a lot of people just throw the broken tools away amd go and buy more of the junk exchaning good money for junk and making china richer and us poorer. I always go out of my way to return china junk for a refund. I try to avoid china junk as much as possible but that's not always feasible. but as long as they don't get my money that's the important thing.

I blame trade policies more than consumers.We should not be running trade deficits especially with China if we should be trading with them at all. And also American companies are to blame for always trying to make exuberant profits and just plain stick it to Americans. For a 1st world nation the US is now a low labor cost country. Products could be manufactured affordably and profitably in America.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I just wished that more people who buy tools at HF and after they inevitably break or display unacceptably low quality at any price would return them and maybe for a full refund. This would accomplish a few things. Either they would have to improve the quality or they would eventually go out of business or at the least there would be less profiting from selling disposable junk.

I get the sense that a lot of people just throw the broken tools away amd go and buy more of the junk exchaning good money for junk and making china richer and us poorer. I always go out of my way to return china junk for a refund. I try to avoid china junk as much as possible but that's not always feasible. but as long as they don't get my money that's the important thing.

I blame trade policies more than consumers.We should not be running trade deficits especially with China if we should be trading with them at all. And also American companies are to blame for always trying to make exuberant profits and just plain stick it to Americans. For a 1st world nation the US is now a low labor cost country. Products could be manufactured affordably and profitably in America.



I agree, and I will add that the cost of labor is slowly rising in China so hopefully jobs will stay and come back in the future one day.
 
Overk1ll,
My comment was not intended to promote HF or Chinese tools. As I said most of my tools are US made and will last ones lifetime. I was there(HF) with a friend and noticed how well the Pittsburg branded tools appeared. As you, I try to buy from locally made products. The bigger problem is as I see it is our choices are becoming less and less. I buy North American cars, and try to buy parts from here as well. A year ago a friend brought his Pontiac over to change brakes. We went ot O'Reilly's for Wagner parts. Guess what? The Wagner rotors were now made in China. The quality seemed fine, but I was disgusted. More off shore manuf.
 
30 yrs ago, I was using company issued spud wrenches made by Armstrong. The wrench was prolly older than I was. I have odd pieces of 3rd world wrenches and screwdrivers. They are used to death and tossed . I pick them up when I see them left around or from the roadside. I have 2 sets of 1/2 impact sockets, standard and metric. 10 bucks for the pair. Hecho en China. I dont have air tools, so I hammer them with the biggest hammer I can swing at it.
laugh.gif


I'm a hacker, I use the tools to keep my stuff going. I try to make do with what I have rather than spending money on anything.
 
To be honest I think that the American companies would help their cause if they would actually advertise? I mean how do you know where they are at or know of them if they don't let you know they are out there. Also some of the brands I've looked at were only sold a wholesale places which wouldn't let you buy from. You got to help your cause a little if you want to sell.
 
The trick is to go take a good one off the shelf than swap them.

But Craftsman is going downhill, I'm slowly converting to Snap On.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

I blame trade policies more than consumers.We should not be running trade deficits especially with China if we should be trading with them at all. And also American companies are to blame for always trying to make exuberant profits and just plain stick it to Americans. For a 1st world nation the US is now a low labor cost country. Products could be manufactured affordably and profitably in America.


You are definitely on the mark with these comments, I also blame the culture of "throw away" that the elite have inculcated in the US consumer whether in public school or other similar avenues for many years now. The fact is that over thirty years ago people didn't always look for the cheapest product EVERYTIME, ALL THE TIME like they have been TRAINED to do today.

But what has really forced the hand of the US consumer over the past three decades or so is that the Unconstitutional free trade agreements have lowered the wages of US (and Canadian) workers so much that it almost forces cash strapped consumers to look at the cheapest of everything.

I also agree about the WEIRD almost conspiratorial aspect of US and Canadian tool makers NOT marketing/advertising themselves and finding the brick and mortar stores to sell their products at. Suspicious to say the least.

I think that the elite WANT an end to manufacturing in the developed world for whatever reasons.

I'd like to know why you can't go into your local ACE hardware store (or similar) and find tools like Armstrong, or SK?

@OVERKILL:

I definitely understand your frustration...but a lot of the problem is the corrosive consumer culture that our leaders have tried to force on us. The underlying subconscious theme for the past thirty years seems to have been ALWAYS BUY CHEAP EVERYTIME, IT MUST ALWAYS BE ON SALE, CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP....

EVEN IF IN THE LONG RUN BUYING THIS WAY COSTS YOU MORE AND GIVES YOU MUCH WORSE RELIABILITY AND QUALITY!!!
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Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 91344George


@OVERKILL:

I definitely understand your frustration...but a lot of the problem is the corrosive consumer culture that our leaders have tried to force on us. The underlying subconscious theme for the past thirty years seems to have been ALWAYS BUY CHEAP EVERYTIME, IT MUST ALWAYS BE ON SALE, CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP....

EVEN IF IN THE LONG RUN BUYING THIS WAY COSTS YOU MORE AND GIVES YOU MUCH WORSE RELIABILITY AND QUALITY!!!
33.gif



I don't know what you are talking about
wink.gif


rollback2.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Here's a Canadian made 3/8" drive ratchet for you Canadian guys out there:


Gray Tools


Forgot about Gray!

Shame on me, as I have a pile of their tools.
 
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