Engine rattle at startup - Toyota REFUSES to fix

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91344George: The noise I hear actually sounds closer to the sample video in my first post, but often times much worse. I'd like to get a video of the car starting with the camera in front of the car but it's a bit awkward to do alone and hard to find a helper these days. I want to make the recording when it's somewhat cold outside to try to get a "worst-case" recording. I absolutely agree that something is broken but I respect PRND3L's opinion nonetheless.
 
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Originally Posted By: 91344George
@VVTinme:

You NEED to get that video/sound of your problem. Have a coworker help you.

I'll try tomorrow and make a recording from the side. It will be awkward (I need to be on the clutch to start it) but sufficient.
 
Every now and then when I start the car it fires up almost immediately. I don't know why it stutters 9/10 of the time and rarely starts as it did when I first bought the car. This morning it started almost instantly so the rattle wasn't nearly as bad as it often is.

I managed to get a recording then not of the worst-case scenario as intended, but rather of the best-case (apart from the even rarer occasion that it doesn't rattle on a cold start). I managed to find a helper so it's from the front of the car.
 
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Timing chain tension? Once the oil pressure comes up it gets rid of the slight slack in the chain?

Has this done it through multiple oil changes? I once had that noise for about 3-5 seconds when cold every time. Changed that brand/type of oil and filter never had it again.

Its hard with only 14 secs of video to trouble shoot.

Bill
 
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
Every now and then when I start the car it fires up almost immediately. I don't know why it stutters 9/10 of the time and rarely starts as it did when I first bought the car. This morning it started almost instantly so the rattle wasn't nearly as bad as it often is.

I managed to get a recording then not of the worst-case scenario as intended, but rather of the best-case (apart from the even rarer occasion that it doesn't rattle on a cold start). I managed to find a helper so it's from the front of the car.



You have the top cover off the engine..which on most engines is designed to abate mechanical noise. You will get nowhere with this video. In fact the amount of noise is not far off from the normal start up sound I get on several of my Toyota engines that have no issues at all. I am doubting the validity of your claim.
 
Yes, you need to try and get a worst case video for us.
That video of your car just shows normal typical sound we hear, and nothing in the video makes us think that there's something wrong with the car that requires immediate action.

The other videos of the toyota and chevy were more alarming, but sounded more like loose cam chain tensioners rather than bad cam phasing at startup.

I guess it depends whether the cam phasing and the tensioners are both oil pressure fed. If yes, then I can see pressure loss causing the noises you are hearing.

Granted its an older Toyota engine, but I just replaced the cam chain tensioner on a '99 Corolla the other week. It made the same noise for the same amount of time as the Toyota in the first example video did. After that, it stopped making that much noise.

Your problem might be tensioner related, and not cam phaser related, but we would need a video that shows us what you are hearing when the car is at its worst.

BC.
 
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Yes, you need to try and get a worst case video for us.
That video of your car just shows normal typical sound we hear, and nothing in the video makes us think that there's something wrong with the car that requires immediate action.

The other videos of the toyota and chevy were more alarming, but sounded more like loose cam chain tensioners rather than bad cam phasing at startup.

I guess it depends whether the cam phasing and the tensioners are both oil pressure fed. If yes, then I can see pressure loss causing the noises you are hearing.

Granted its an older Toyota engine, but I just replaced the cam chain tensioner on a '99 Corolla the other week. It made the same noise for the same amount of time as the Toyota in the first example video did. After that, it stopped making that much noise.

Your problem might be tensioner related, and not cam phaser related, but we would need a video that shows us what you are hearing when the car is at its worst.

BC.


The video of the nox and the toyota I posted were indeed VVT problems. The nox 2.4L problem is well documented.
 
Bill: I changed the oil once with genuine Toyota 0W-20 oil and a Toyota filter. The car had strange starting behavior before I changed it where often the car would jerk violently when started. It later turned into a rough start where it almost seems as though the timing is off. I changed the oil to flush out break-in metals soon after that. Not long after (but still several hundred miles later) it began to rattle when starting. It's audible inside the car and quite loud outside it.

Doog: Doubt me as much as you want. The tC does NOT come with an engine cover. I have not altered the car in any way. In person it sounds worse and to me sounds identical to the sample video from the TSB. Also, I highly doubt that an engine cover would muffle this particular noise; it can be quite aggressive at its worst.

The other thing to remember is that it's often accompanied by a relatively rough start. As I said, the car started as well as it ever does, and it's somewhat random how it will start on a given day or at a given time. This is a new car. It should NOT sound like this.
 
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2 things that may or may not help.

1) Ford 5.4L engines that do this can switch from 5W-20 oil to 10W-40 synthetic. (according to Ford)

2) The type of oil filter anti drain back valve makes a difference too.
 
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
I've gone ahead and filed a BBB complaint against Toyota USA. We'll see where this takes me. I'll also be writing a formal complaint to Toyota very shortly.


Filing this against a company as large as Toyota US may not receive any notice. File it against the dealer will be much more effective.
 
Cujet: It's a new car. I should not have to switch to a thicker oil, and in this case, I believe that would be a workaround as opposed to a fix. Toyota needs to take the cover off my engine and inspect/replace the VVTI cam gear and/or timing chain. The car has been broken almost since the beginning, starting to act-up in the second month of ownership.

vinu_neuro: The most recent dealership I went to is new and does not yet have BBB accreditation. Their current stance is that since the SE Toyota rep. looked at the car and said it was "normal" they tend to agree with his assessment. I went down there yesterday and went over my entire story with someone from the service department who should be relaying my story to the service manager, who was unfortunately not in that day. If my current BBB complaint gets me nowhere I may file one against the dealership but I'm taking it one step at a time. Right now I'm waiting for the manager to call me back to schedule a time to come in and address my issues. At minimum I expect them to replace the door panel and fix the suspension noises that I started hearing recently. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and fix my engine, too, but I've come to expect the bare minimum from Toyota. I'm also continuing to pursue a remedy through Scion's customer service department. Needless to say, I will not drop this issue until I achieve complete satisfaction.
 
Lets say they keep saying its normal....

and offer to give you a very good trade in value for your tC, would you trade it in and get rid of it ?
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Lets say they keep saying its normal....

and offer to give you a very good trade in value for your tC, would you trade it in and get rid of it ?


31.gif

Ha...so VVT is supposed to take a hit on a almost brand spankin new car because of a MAJOR issue? (engine related)

If it was me the ONLY thing that would shut me up is either one of two choices...

1) Toyota Motor USA buys the car back at 98% of new list price value.

OR

2) Exchange this car for a brand new exact replacement at a nominal fee ...say 200 (to take care of title, tags, ect) bucks.


VVT DO NOT settle for anything less than your complete satisfaction, they know that if you are "vocal" you can still cause their reputation damage. Be polite, but firm and persistent, (business like) in telling them what will resolve the issue for you.
 
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Bottom line is if you don't want surprises when you have replacement parts installed (usually the surprise is not a good one either) then at least try to go with OEM if not the Honda branded part.

It may cost a bit more but it will perform like it did when it was new and the warranty might be better on it too.
 
I have a friend with a Scion. Different year, different problem but this info may still be helpful. About 3 years ago he had a problem they refused to fix because there was no TSB that directly called his year Scion. After a month of back and forth with Toyota and different dealers, he found this out:

- The main thing that makes a Scion a Scion is the body
- Toyota keeps the costs of Scions down using excess new parts manufactured as many as 3 years ago.
- TSB's from prior 2-3 years may apply to current year Scions.
- TSB's from prior years lag with updates to include current year Scions, confusing dealers handling warranty claims.

So, perhaps the TSB for defective Cam gears in the 07-09 range applies to your Scion. Getting the MFG date of the engine will help prove your case. Again, this was 3 years ago, maybe Scion has their own engine now. But its worth looking into.
 
Here's something else that may help in addition to my last reply. I just searched found T-SB-0146-10 (R & R Camshaft Timing Gear Assembly) titled "Brief Engine Knock/Rattle Noise at Cold Startup (1AR/2AR)".

http://rav4world.com/tsb/2010/T-SB-0146-10.pdf

Its clear they are adding vehicles to the existing TSB with this statement:

TSB REVISION NOTICE
June 17, 2011 Rev1:
• Applicability has been updated to include 2011 model year Highlander, RAV4, Sienna, and
Venza vehicles.
• Warranty Information, Parts Information, and Repair Procedure sections have been updated.
Any previous printed versions of this service bulletin should be discarded.

This may suggest the engine components haven't changed much in the last couple/few years. If your engine is one of these, maybe there is a way to match the VIN codes provided in the TSB and push it along.
 
Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Lets say they keep saying its normal....

and offer to give you a very good trade in value for your tC, would you trade it in and get rid of it ?


31.gif

Ha...so VVT is supposed to take a hit on a almost brand spankin new car because of a MAJOR issue? (engine related)

If it was me the ONLY thing that would shut me up is either one of two choices...

1) Toyota Motor USA buys the car back at 98% of new list price value.

OR

2) Exchange this car for a brand new exact replacement at a nominal fee ...say 200 (to take care of title, tags, ect) bucks.


VVT DO NOT settle for anything less than your complete satisfaction, they know that if you are "vocal" you can still cause their reputation damage. Be polite, but firm and persistent, (business like) in telling them what will resolve the issue for you.

At the dealership where I'm currently pursuing this issue I had a salesman give me a quote on trading in my car towards a new Camry. Needless to say, they gave me a [censored] offer. I'm not taking a hit on my car because of Toyota's incompetence. If they don't fix it I'll be done with them, and you can be [censored] sure that I will try to keep friends and family from buying Toyotas too.

I was at that dealer two days ago to show them the door panel damage but unfortunately the service manager was not in. I instead showed it to one of his underlings to document it, showed him a nasty suspension noise that started recently, and explained the engine rattle to him in detail. It's been almost two days though without a call back so I think I'll have to call them back and press the issue harder.
 
Any dealer who attempts a repair on this car under warranty after the service rep said "it's normal" is most likely going to eat an expensive repair bill, as Scion/Toyota isn't going to reimburse the dealer for their time/parts.

You're gonna have to get at least a teardown okayed somewhere above the dealer's head.

I'd look for a Scion owner's forum, join up, tell my story, and see if you can find someone that has had a successful outcome to a similar problem.
 
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