M1 afe vs toyota 0w20

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Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Brenden
Moly is just another anti-wear additive like boron...

I keep reading that on this site, but can't find any evidence that it is an anti-wear additive. Do you have a link to any info on this?


I've always been under the impression that boron is used mainly for it's cleaning abilities, and doesn't do all that much in the way of wear protection.
 
Originally Posted By: swirlparanoid
Will the extra moly in the Toyota oil provide any extra protection the M1 cant? Would the difference in the cold thickness really make any difference at these temps?


yes, and yes.

will these differences increase the service life of your engine? pretty unlikely...

That said, if you can get both for a similar price, I'd go with the Toyota (that's what I'm doing in my Ford, and due to cost and availability, these are my top 2 contenders as well). The Toyota gets up to operating temps more quickly than other oils, and it flows better at start-up. That's a win-win in my book, so even if the benefits in engine protection are marginal, I'll take them if there are no downsides--and I don't see any. And while I'm not going to make any claims in fuel economy, since there are too many variables thrown into the mix, I do believe there are benefits there as well. For me, the cost is almost identical, so I go for the Toyota 0W20.
 
Toyota 0w-20 is made by Mobil now, so the differences between the two aren't as great as they used to be. Personally, I would like the large dose of moly that the Toyota oil has.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Toyota 0w-20 is made by Mobil now, so the differences between the two aren't as great as they used to be. Personally, I would like the large dose of moly that the Toyota oil has.


Huh? The VOA's on the Nippon and XOM Toyota oils are nearly identical--and the XOM Toyota and Mobil1 0W20's really aren't that similar at all--at least as far as comparing 0W20 oils.
 
Mobil 1 0w20 would be more ideal under high temperature conditions. I'm not sure what other advantages/disadvantages there are between the two.

In a Prius, or any Toyota actually, the Toyota oil is probably a good way to go. Toyota's don't run high oil temperatures and if the oil can give an additional mpg or so, go for it.

You would have to run all the engine sequence tests and other tests to compare the two products.

Just because an oil has high moly doesn't mean anything. Oils are precisely balanced with their base oil components etc. and there are many ways to make a good oil.
 
Originally Posted By: buster

Just because an oil has high moly doesn't mean anything.

Well it means something.
Up until now, if you wanted a high moly oil you had to go with a high end oil like RL or Motul 300V.
Moly is expensive, and that's the main reason you don't see large doses of it in other OTC motor oils.
If it was dirt cheap I believe it would be a routine additive.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Toyota 0w-20 is made by Mobil now, so the differences between the two aren't as great as they used to be. Personally, I would like the large dose of moly that the Toyota oil has.


Huh? The VOA's on the Nippon and XOM Toyota oils are nearly identical--and the XOM Toyota and Mobil1 0W20's really aren't that similar at all--at least as far as comparing 0W20 oils.


Toyota came up with the recipe for the additives, but it is now made using XOM's base oils. The old and new Toyota oils will still look very similar in a VOA, but the base stocks will be different. The SM Mobil 1 oils had pretty similar additive levels, minus the moly.
 
They are very different oils including the base oils. The tip off is the markedly different VIs, 203 for the XOM made Toyota 0W-20 vs 173 for M1.
EOM still uses exactly the same additive source (Adeka Sakura-Lube of Japan) at least for the moly that the original formulator, Nippon Oil did.
 
Originally Posted By: swirlparanoid
...do not assume the dealer will use it because that might not be the case...

Yeah, my dealer puts bulk Mobil dino 5W-30 in everything unless you request the correct grade and/or Toyota oil.
 
So in the case of the Toyota oil, once the motor has been run and heated up etc, does the superior MRV of the Mobil 1 matter as much since the moly will remain adhered to the metal surfaces? In other words, does the moly protect where the low-temp flow characteristics aren't as good?
 
MRV is a measure of viscosity and with a 0W oil that measure is taken at -40 degrees.
At oil temperatures above 0F it has not useful value at all.

Moly is an anti-wear and anti-oxidant additive. It also reduces the coefficient of friction of an oil. Both M1 and the Toyota oil contain moly, it's just the Toyota oil contains 5 times as much. As buster pointed out all oils contain a number of anti-wear boundary additives including ZDDP.
They're both excellent oils and I think we're splitting hairs trying to determine which oil would provide less start-up wear.

In the OP's climate the, Toyota 0W-20 is lighter on start-up and that really is the deciding factor.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
EOM still uses exactly the same additive source (Adeka Sakura-Lube of Japan) at least for the moly that the original formulator, Nippon Oil did.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Moly is an anti-wear and anti-oxidant additive. It also reduces the coefficient of friction of an oil. Both M1 and the Toyota oil contain moly, it's just the Toyota oil contains 5 times as much.

Infineum is XOM's oil additive source for M1 (XOM & Shell own Infineum). The type of moly that Infineum is supplying, Trinuclear Molybdenum Disulphide, is patented. This type of moly is several (I have read that it is 4 to 5) times more effective than the type of moly used by anyone else. Therefore, in terms of additive performance, the moly number seen in oil analysis results isn't directly comparable between M1 and other oil brands that don't use Infineum's patented moly chemistry.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
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Infineum is XOM's oil additive source for M1 (XOM & Shell own Infineum). The type of moly that Infineum is supplying, Trinuclear Molybdenum Disulphide, is patented. This type of moly is several (I have read that it is 4 to 5) times more effective than the type of moly used by anyone else. Therefore, in terms of additive performance, the moly number seen in oil analysis results isn't directly comparable between M1 and other oil brands that don't use Infineum's patented moly chemistry.

You may be right, I don't know.
What I find curious is why EOM goes to the trouble of importing the Adeka Sakura-Lube from Japan for use in the oil they make for Toyota. I do know that Adeka Sakura also have patents on their product.
 
The point that I was trying to make CATERHAM is that you can't tell the actual performance of any particular brand of motor oil relative to any other brand of motor oil simply by by its VOA numbers, including it's moly content (this is especially true when it comes to Infineum's patented moly chemistry).
All of the major motor oil manufacturers have patented proprietary additives and blends that give their oil specific characteristics that may not apply to anyone else's oil, and these many different motor oils may very likely produce the same end result.
 
Very true. That was the point I was trying to make. They use a different moly than what RL or Toyota 0w20 uses.
 
I understand the point you're making and I've already said you may very well be right in particular with regard to the trinuclear MoS2 in low doses. I too have read about what your referring to in part. IIRC to get the mimimum wear no more than 200-250 ppm of moly is necessary. But I haven't heard anything from Infineum regarding major fuel economy claims and general reductions in the CoF of motor with the addition of their moly.
That's not to say it doesn't go hand in hand with wear reduction it's just not spelled out by them.
Also while Mobil uses a small amount of moly in their street oils they use a hugh amount in their race oils; no particular point, just an observation.

But getting back to the difference between M1 0W-20 and the Toyota Brand 0W-20. The M1 oil is actually a fairly old formulation developed back in 2004 and it hasn't changed much according to Mobil. I one sense it is more of a "true" 0W-20 oil since the emphasis is on extreme cold performance. It was only when they resurrected the oil after it was discontinued and relabeled AFE did it get a new lease on life.
The Toyota oil is more interested in an "ultra low viscosity" at less extreme temp's that most users will encounter.
The organic moly additive is what was used by the Japanese OEM's and as I mentioned I find it interesting EOM chose not to use their own sources of the additive or convince Toyota that their moly compound had the same benefit if indeed it does.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
...IIRC to get the mimimum wear no more than 200-250 ppm of moly is necessary...

I do not know what kind of moly they were using, nor can I find the white paper right now, but I have read that the Japanese Automakers Association has determined that 700 ppm of moly with 800 ppm zinc, offers the same boundary lubrication protection as 1100 ppm zinc (really the phosphorous with the zinc, I know.)

True? Would it protect flat tappets? I don't know. I just read this a couple years ago.
 
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