High ash vs TBN vs particle filter etc?

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LucasDK

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Hi,

I'm new to this forum and have read somewhat about engine oils. There is however, something which puzzles me concerning diesel engine oils. I'm not an expert I'm just trying to explain what I have read so far:

1.
If you have an older type diesel engine without particle filter and a catalyst, you need a high level of ash and TBN - at least this is what I'm reading. The ash level and TBN seem to follow each other. These 2 values give an indication on the detergent level in the oil which is extremely important in diesel engines because of the high soot level. But there also seems to be some negative effects:

Positive: Detergency (and maybe diperseancy) effect
Negative: More wear due to high ash content. More sludge build-up due to high ash content.

So, is there an optimum in terms of ash content and TBN's? To me it seems very conflicting. Is a high ash content good or bad? Do these oils only make sense if there is an elevated surfur content in the diesel fuel?

I have 2 examples:

For instance, the Mobil Delvac XHP Extra 10W40 has an ash content of 1,9 and a TBN of almost 16. It should be very good for heavy duty diesel engines:
Mobil Delvac

Then again, there is the Castrol Tection Extra. It has a ash content of only 1.2 and a TBN of 12 (15W40 Version).
Castrol Tection

How do these two heavy duty engine oils differ? Will they perform the same or what can be concluded?


2.
Next, from reading it seems that modern diesel engine cars with particle filters and catalysts need engine oils with a low ash content and a low TBN. A high level of ash supposedly destroys the particle filter faster. Is this possible because less soot is transported to the engine oil because of better manufacturing tolerances (or maybe cleaner diesel fuel?) and that way the oil does not need to be cleaned in the same way? Or are these low ash and low TBN oils only functioning because of the extremely low sulfur levels in diesel fuel now a days?

Thanks in advance,

Lucas
 
The Delvac XHP is an ACEA E4/MB228.5/MAN3277 oil designed for European diesels with short top ring to crown distances and tight cylinder crown clearances.
The Tection HD is an API CI4+ oil, the Tection Extra apparently also - both designed for American engines with looser crown clearances and greater top ring to crown distances.
These and other differences account for ability of the engine to "handle" ash contents of certain levels without oil deposits. Also, because the MB/MAN engines are hotter in that area, they need higher detergent levels to avoid carbonaceous deposits of partially burned fuel above the top ring.

Charlie
 
Last edited:
Detergents that are organometallic do not clean or disperse soot. Dispersants, which are nonmetallic, like succinimides hold soot in suspension. Detergents neutralize acids, produced not only by sulfur oxides (now largely gone in 1st world) but nitrogen oxides. And they clean deposits of partially burned fuel that are carbonaceous gunk.

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
The Delvac XHP is an ACEA E4/MB228.5/MAN3277 oil designed for European diesels with short top ring to crown distances and tight cylinder crown clearances.
The Tection HD is an API CI4+ oil, the Tection Extra apparently also - both designed for American engines with looser crown clearances and greater top ring to crown distances.
These and other differences account for ability of the engine to "handle" ash contents of certain levels without oil deposits. Also, because the MB/MAN engines are hotter in that area, they need higher detergent levels to avoid carbonaceous deposits of partially burned fuel above the top ring.

Charlie


Would it help in any way if I could provide some measurements of the piston clearances etc (I have a manual)? Could you determine from that what type of oil will be recommended?

Lucas
 
Let's not forget that TBN was/is geared towards the fluid lifecycle of the lube in relation to the acids, as well. It's not the only thing that is considered, but it's certainly one that is of many.

With the mandated on-road use of ULSD (predominant in the NA market) the need for TBN is greatly reduced. While TBN does degrade as a result of accumulated mileage and contributing conditions such as humidity, temps, etc, the rate at which the new CJ-4 lubes degrade is tyipcally slower than the former fluids, simply because there is less sulphur to contribute to the acid production (from the fuel, and the oil, and even fuel additives). If I am not mistaken, some of the elements that are used in the detergent and anti-agglomerate package also, by secondary nature, affect the TBN as well; it's a sympathetic relationship.

Older formulations CH-4, CI-4+ would also last longer in serivce with ULSD, but it would be such a stretch to even get to a point where the TBN was "low" that practically no one ever tries it. Most often, soot or other things (such as wrench boredom) condemn the fluid before the TBN value does.

For the European markets, I'm not familiar with the type of fuel used and it's elemental limits.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

For the European markets, I'm not familiar with the type of fuel used and it's elemental limits.


From this:
Wikipedia

It seems that we are also using ULSD in Europe with a 10 ppm limit of sulfur in the diesel fuel.

Lucas
 
Originally Posted By: LucasDK

Would it help in any way if I could provide some measurements of the piston clearances etc (I have a manual)? Could you determine from that what type of oil will be recommended?

Lucas


No. You should use the oil that the engine manufacturer recommends. What engine are you referring to?

Charlie
 
Do you have an owner's manual for it?
It is naturally aspirated.
Japanese engines tend to be "in between" Euro and N. American engines in cylinder top design.
My educated guess is that an ACEA E3, E5 or E7 oil (a N. American API rating of CH4 or CI4) would be best for this engine.
Although people have run ACEA E4/MB228.5 oils in 1HZs without apparent problems.
Are you planning long oil change intervals in overland travel in countries with high sulfur fuel?

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Do you have an owner's manual for it?
It is naturally aspirated.
Japanese engines tend to be "in between" Euro and N. American engines in cylinder top design.
My educated guess is that an ACEA E3, E5 or E7 oil (a N. American API rating of CH4 or CI4) would be best for this engine.
Although people have run ACEA E4/MB228.5 oils in 1HZs without apparent problems.
Are you planning long oil change intervals in overland travel in countries with high sulfur fuel?

Charlie


The Haynes Manual says this:

API Grade CD or better
SAE 15W-40 API CD,CF-4 or CF
In cold climate 10W-30

Yes, it is naturally aspirated and has no particle filter and no catalytic converter.

The engine will be operated between -15 and +30 degrees Celsius (typical for southern Scandinavia).

On the internet I found a grainy picture of a 1HZ piston.

1HZ Piston

The piston has a diameter of 93.885-93.895 mm while the bore is 94.00-94.01. From measuring on the picture the distance from the upper ring to the crown is approx. 9 mm. Is that the measurement you are asking about?

At the moment the car will be used in Europe only where the fuel has a low sulfur content.

Concerning oil change intervals: The Haynes Manual truly states every 5000 kms or 6 months. I have no idea, but to European common sense this sounds extreme. My Toyota Hiace with a naturally aspirated diesel engine (2,4 litre displacement) requires an oil change every 15000 km (according to the manual) even though it is an "old" 1996 Model requiring API CD oils. Furthermore, that engine (Engine Code 2L) was developed in the beginning of the 1980's. At the moment I have a total yearly milage of approx 20000 km. If I would tell my friends that I'm doing oil changes 4 times a year - they would probably send me to a shrink. From many 4x4 Forums I can confirm that a lot of people are changing their engine oil every 5000 km. Some even at 3000 kms. Personally I thought these oil change intervals of 5000 kms were common 20-30 years ago where engine oils were inferior to the oils we have today.

You are welcome to advise me.

Lucas
 
No particular reason except it's a good long list of good oils.
Most of which are Europe available.

Charlie
 
I did some more research:

The Toyota 1HZ engine has roller tappet cams and not flat tappet cams. What can be concluded from that in terms of engine oil choices?

Lucas
 
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
I did some more research:

The Toyota 1HZ engine has roller tappet cams and not flat tappet cams. What can be concluded from that in terms of engine oil choices?

Lucas


Not much, really. An ACEA E3, E5 or E7 oil should do fine with 10000km oil changes.

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
Hi,

I'm new to this forum and have read somewhat about engine oils. There is however, something which puzzles me concerning diesel engine oils. I'm not an expert I'm just trying to explain what I have read so far:

1.
If you have an older type diesel engine without particle filter and a catalyst, you need a high level of ash and TBN - at least this is what I'm reading. The ash level and TBN seem to follow each other. These 2 values give an indication on the detergent level in the oil which is extremely important in diesel engines because of the high soot level. But there also seems to be some negative effects:

Positive: Detergency (and maybe diperseancy) effect
Negative: More wear due to high ash content. More sludge build-up due to high ash content.

So, is there an optimum in terms of ash content and TBN's? To me it seems very conflicting. Is a high ash content good or bad? Do these oils only make sense if there is an elevated surfur content in the diesel fuel?

I have 2 examples:

For instance, the Mobil Delvac XHP Extra 10W40 has an ash content of 1,9 and a TBN of almost 16. It should be very good for heavy duty diesel engines:
Mobil Delvac

Then again, there is the Castrol Tection Extra. It has a ash content of only 1.2 and a TBN of 12 (15W40 Version).
Castrol Tection

How do these two heavy duty engine oils differ? Will they perform the same or what can be concluded?


2.
Next, from reading it seems that modern diesel engine cars with particle filters and catalysts need engine oils with a low ash content and a low TBN. A high level of ash supposedly destroys the particle filter faster. Is this possible because less soot is transported to the engine oil because of better manufacturing tolerances (or maybe cleaner diesel fuel?) and that way the oil does not need to be cleaned in the same way? Or are these low ash and low TBN oils only functioning because of the extremely low sulfur levels in diesel fuel now a days?

Thanks in advance,

Lucas

Sulphated ash is a measure of the total amount of all metallic elements in the oil. What they do is that they burn the oil in an incinerator and then treat it with sulfuric acid, which results in the formation of sulphated ash, which is then a measure of all metallic elements in the oil (K, Na, Ca, Mg, Zn, Mo, Ti, etc., etc.).

Obviously sulphated ash increases with the amount of additives in the oil. Detergents, antiwear additives, TBN additives, etc. all contain metallic elements and they all increase sulphated ash.

Certainly more sulphated ash means more load on the particulate filter as well as the catalyst. High-starting-TBN oils have obviously more sulphated ash because of higher level of TBN-increasing additives.

I don't think most people need a starting TBN of more than about 10. Also, TBN retention is more important than the starting TBN, as what is important is not how high the TBN is but that it should never go below 1 to prevent oil becoming acidic.

If you want to make your life easier, simply get a CJ-4 oil. Its performance criteria is better than previous grades (including CI-4 Plus) in virtually all areas, including wear, detergency, and soot dispersion. It supersedes all previous Cx-y categories except CF-2. You won't go wrong with a CJ-4 oil in any diesel application (except possibly CF-2).

Only if you are using high-sulfur fuel (more than 500 ppm), CI-4 or CH-4 Plus could possibly be a better choice, as it could possibly have a higher TBN to fight the sulfur in the high-sulfur diesel fuel over the oil-change interval.
 
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
The Haynes Manual says this:

API Grade CD or better
SAE 15W-40 API CD,CF-4 or CF
In cold climate 10W-30

Yes, it is naturally aspirated and has no particle filter and no catalytic converter.

The engine will be operated between -15 and +30 degrees Celsius (typical for southern Scandinavia).

These are very low specs. Many gasoline-engine oils meet CF. (Check the bottle.) But the proper viscosity depends on whether it's CJ-4 or CF-only.

A synthetic CJ-4 5W-40 is probably the best year-around choice for your climate. A CJ-4 10W-30 (which has a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.5 to prevent engine damage at high temperatures and loads) could be a year-around choice unless it gets too cold or a CJ-4 15W-40 would be a great choice when it doesn't go much below freezing.

If you can't find a a CJ-4 oil, you need to find a CF 10W-40 or a CF 0W-40.

Do not use a CF 5W-30 or a CF 10W-30, as the HTHS viscosity would be too low and possibly cause engine damage in certain driving conditions (high temperature, high load).
 
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