'04 Cummins 5.9 CRD Red Line 15W40 Diesel 7,500 mi

[ThatDudeOrion]

OCI was 7,500 miles, 44,000 total miles on engine.

Somewhat concerned about the copper, but I thought I read somewhere that was common on these engines, guess that's why it took me 3 years to post the UOA, but better late than never I suppose.

I was definitely happy with the amount of TBN left at this interval.

Thoughts?


UOA_RedLine_2 by zogorion, on Flickr

Code:


Unit Universal Avg.

aluminum 4.0 3.0

chromium 1.0 2.0

iron 10.0 23.0

copper 115.0 4.0

lead 5.0 2.0

tin 4.0 1.0

molybdenum 579.0 25.0

nickel 0.0 0.0

manganese 0.0 0.0

silver 2.0 0.0

titanium 0.0 0.0

potassium 26.0 3.0

boron 20.0 85.0

silicon 10.0 7.0

sodium 14.0 4.0

calcium 2343.0 2843.0

magnesium 61.0 233.0

phosphorus 1123.0 1083.0

zinc 1389.0 1267.0

barium 0.0 1.0



SUS Viscosity @210F 76.7 69-78

cSt Viscosity @100C 14.7 12.7-15.3

Flashpoint 460F >415F

Fuel
Antifreeze ? 0.0

Water % 0.0
Insolubles 0.1
TBN 6.5

 

[Steve S]

Well The Redline is really a waste in that engine "especially at you oil change interval". The engine doesn't need or require syn oil to live a long life. Is this UOA the first run of Redline oil? The TBN is good because the oil was changed out too soon. The main advantage you will see using syn oils are extended oil change intervals which you are not getting.

 

[ThatDudeOrion]

I agree. This was the only time I ran the RedLine, after this analysis I went to using dino for a while and am now on Rotella T6 now that my Wal-Mart started carrying that. I have begun to contemplate switching back to RedLine because I'm planning to put a bypass filter and I want to go to an annual OCI...justifying, i think, the extra expense and hassle of getting 3+ gallons of RedLine or possibly Amsoil.

Any advice about the stuff I'm seeing in oil?

 

[dnewton3]

This UOA is 3 years old? What's happened since then?

If your annual OCI is less than 25k miles, you're still going to be wasting oil and filters if you plan to run RL and bypass. If your annual OCI is way past that, then the RL and bypass filters can really pay you back in fiscal ROI.

You really need to sit down and better define you operating patterns, maintenance plan, and such. Then you can make some good decisions.

That (3 year old) UOA data is very good overall, but it also shows you clearly wasted money; that oil didn't need to come out.

The Cu is typical of some high-end products, and it often associated with the shedding of Cu (chelating); happens often in Dmax engines with initial use of Amsoil, too. Often attributed to the special chemistry of some of the high-end products. I am not a fan of this phenomenon, but I will admit that there is very little to fear other than the masking of other potential issues; fear of the unknown, so to speak.

For reference, there is a person here running a Dmax with T6 and a "normal" filter, and run's 25k miles on his OCI. There is another person here with a Cummins who is very methodically approaching 20k miles on dino VPB!

If you can/will greatly extend your OCI, then RL and bypass can make sense. If not, you're wasting a lot of dollars and cents.

 

[ThatDudeOrion]

Thanks for the great info.

Basically what I gather from your post is that if I'm driving less than 25k annually I could get away with dino? Which is what I've been doing in the 3 years since this UOA because I realized I was wasting money.

My follow up questions would be...

Since I'm closer to 10-15k annually do I need to change my oil every year like Amsoil says? What necessitates annual OCI's if not mileage?

The truck has T6 in it right now and I guess I got curious about going back to the higher end products, specifically RL, because I figured the "cleaner" nature of the ester base would help if extending the OCI. But now I'm starting to think that a year isn't all that long...

 

[sdan27]

No a year is not that long at all really, I once did a 31 month oil change on a Cummins 5.9L we had in a piece of farm equipment that could have gone longer too. That was just using Texaco Ursa Super Plus dino oil. Some of the higher end oil companies will include free oil analysis so you can maximize your oil interval. I think Schaeffers might and I just spoke with a rep. for Texas Refinery Corp. and he said they do.

 

[dnewton3]

I am not saying dino will be 100% able to go 25k miles; that is likely not true. You can always use dino; that is true. You could always use synthetic; that is also ture. The key is to find the point of ROI for any given product, and use that product to its full potential.

There are some people in certain situations that make dino fluids go very far. The successive UOAs from BigGreyMegacab show that the Cummins with dino VPB is a very viable solution. But that may not be true for everyone.

What I'm saying is to sit down and develop a plan, and crunch some numbers.

Here's an example. Say perhaps a dino oil can carry you 10k miles (perhaps more). A synthetic would have to carry you 30k miles, with the same type filter, to make it equal out on a ROI basis. If it cannot do that, it's simply cheaper to OCI more often with dino. You will not know for sure until you run some OCI/UOA cycles to confirm or deny your plan for your particular situation.

I am confident that (presuming your vehicle is in good operating condition with no contamination intrusion) 10k miles is easily attainable with a quality dino lube. You might even get further than that. So any synthetic you choose needs to be able to tripple that OCI, at a minimum, equal to the rise in cost basis, to pay off.

So, if your annual mileage is really closer to 10-15k miles, you could do one or two dino oil changes for a lot less $$$ than a RL change. And yet your wear and contamination would be as good or better with the dino oil. I would think that a high quality filter such as Wix/NG, Fleetguard, etc would be able to do the entire annual OCI up to 15k miles.

Also, I haven't harped on it much, but have you thought about how these premium fluids skew your Cu data? How would you know if a bearing was in trouble, when your Cu is so darn high that it would otherwise mask the extra Cu ppm of an undesirable event? This is one reason I'm not a fan of some of these "chemistry" reactions. And frankly, 150ppm isn't nearly as high as some of them I've seen. So, how many OCIs or flush cycles will you spend with RL before the Cu comes down to a truely "normal" level? How long until you see Cu settle, so that a real event is discernable in the UOA? That's either a lot of miles, or a lot of wasted OCIs, just to get down to "normal".

 

[Johnny]

If you go back to Red Line, don't expect to see those high moly readings. They took the moly out of their diesel oils. For an explanation why, you would have to contact Dave at Red Line.