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#2230874 - 04/13/11 08:30 AM Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4516
Loc: NW Ohio
Recently began the experiment to see the effects of 10W30 in an '05 5.4L Ford 3V modular V8 with VCT.

Note that I am not doing this because I think it will be "better" for the engine. I am looking for a single oil that will work in my "fleet" of two farm tractors, gas pickup, diesel pickup, car and various small engines and Motorcraft Super Duty 10W30 CJ4/SM diesel oil is vying with Rotella T5 10W30 for that honor. I am willing to make minor compromises in relatively unimportant areas to make this happen. The specs are pretty close for each but maybe you read my post in the diesel forum, so I won't bore you with more on that.

I have been datalogging VCT operation on RP 5W20 over 10K miles as well as oil pressure and oil temp.

I have recorded the following averages (only a few hundred miles on the 10W30):

Hot Oil Pressure:

Idle In Gear-
26 psi @ 190F EOT w/ new 5W20 RP
25 psi @ 188F EOT w/ 10K 5W20 RP
33 psi @ 189F EOT w/ new 10W30 MC

Oil Pressure @ 60 MPH (1800rpm)-
63 psi @ 192F EOT w/new 5W20 RP
59 psi @ 198F EOT w/10K 5W20 RP
67 psi @ 189F EOT w/new 10W30 RP

Cold Oil Pressure, 10W30-
(have misplaced the log sheet for cold starts on 5W20... Gad Zukes)

75 psi @ 49F EOT @ cold start, fast idle
(recall around 70 psi for new 5W20)
70 psi @ 59F EOT @ idle in gear
73 psi @ 100F EOT @ 60 mph
70 psi @ 137F EOT @ 60 mph
45 psi @ 165F EOT @ idle in gear

VCT Operation

Nominal. Thus far, VCT ops with 10W30 seems to be identical to 5W20. The data charts look nearly identical. That surprises me a little but is what it is. I have a problem in that I can only record about 5 minutes of data at a time on my programmer, so it's bit difficult to get "snapshots" in all situations. The only differences I see so far are at the transitions and I have to look REALLY close to see it. Full throttle to a moderately fast release of the throttle into coast, the VCT seems to react a little faster. Could be that I can't make the transition exactly the same as I did before, even though I practiced until I thought I was consistent, but the 10W30 seems a little faster in the transition by a fraction. Probably a "macht nichts" deal anyway.

I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Edited by Jim Allen (04/13/11 08:37 AM)
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Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2230875 - 04/13/11 08:33 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
oldmaninsc Offline


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 1550
Loc: California
Interesting to say the least!
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2013 Chevrolet Impala LT
2004 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
2005 Toyota Camry LE
1998 Ford F-150 XLT

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#2230926 - 04/13/11 09:17 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
Burt Offline


Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 1305
Loc: texas
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?
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2011 RX350 53k miles
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#2230944 - 04/13/11 09:38 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?
It is all a compromise!!!
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Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#2230961 - 04/13/11 10:02 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt]
Rob_Roy Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 968
Loc: Northern, NY
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.
_________________________
2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10

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#2230968 - 04/13/11 10:07 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3209
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess?


no, it doesn't.

As long as the pressure is adequate to provide lubrication, there are no upsides to higher oil pressure than necessary--only downsides (increased seal wear, increased strain on the oil pump, increased friction of the overall system). "High enough" will be specified by the mfg.

In Jim's case, I doubt the difference is enough to worry about. This seems to be a case of trading a small amount of performance for the convenience of having one oil on hand. If I had multiple vehicles, that's a trade off I'd probably consider as well.

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#2230970 - 04/13/11 10:09 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3209
Loc: PNW/WA
Jim, did you monitor oil temps at all?

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#2230976 - 04/13/11 10:11 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
Artem Offline


Registered: 10/30/10
Posts: 5085
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.



^your engine will not blow up from a 10w30 and Honda will never know you had it in there. What warranty issues?

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#2230994 - 04/13/11 10:31 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: JOD]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4516
Loc: NW Ohio
Oil temps are a big issue in this, JOD, and that's why my figures read X pressure @ y EOT (Engine oil temp). You may mean, is oil temp higher overall due to the increased viscosity? Probably so, but that's not my major concern and it wouldn't be by much, IMO. I though about it but can't get an exact enough test situation (stone knives and bearskins kinda testing here, relatively speaking) to see how much different it would be.

As to fuel economy, I monitor it closely. Too soon to tell anything. Given that this truck is almost never short hopped (it's driven long enough to get fully warmed up, the oil I mean), a loss of FE from the heavier oil will be less an issue than it might be with a short-hopped rig. Also, it's seldom parked outside in winter.

For you Honda owners, this same viscosity, and possibly this same oil, will be going into a 2000 Accord V6, which was spec'ed for 5W30 and has run that since day one. It also has VCT. It's driven the same way as the truck... few short hops, and garage kept, so the winter rating won't be much of an issue.

I'd prefer a 5W30 HDEO but they are few and far between and expensive. If I could find some at $3-4/qt, like I can with 10W30 HDEO, I'd be on it like stink on doo-doo.
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Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2230999 - 04/13/11 10:35 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
Rob_Roy Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 968
Loc: Northern, NY
I am not trying to hijack Jim's thread, but regarding the 10w30 in the Honda...I simply meant that the vehicle is still under warranty and in the event of an engine warranty claim, it would be nice to have an engine oil of the proper viscosity in the sump. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to do a UOA and see that a 10w30 HDEO is outside the expected viscosity range for an SAE 20. With that said, I agree that the heavier oil wouldn't hurt anything, but for the sake of a few dollars I will keep running the recommended viscosity in this car.

-Rob
_________________________
2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10

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#2231002 - 04/13/11 10:39 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3209
Loc: PNW/WA
yeah, I was wondering if temps overall were higher--or rather, high enough to merit concern for engine cooling and oil breakdown (since I'm sure the oil temps will be higher, I was just wondering "how much higher").

I certainly understand the limitations of the test, since you're limited to the position of the sensors from which you're pulling the data, and you can only log so much data.

I guess my concern would be a significant jump in hths could potentially have the oil running pretty hot due to the increased pressure and friction. What is the hths of the MC10W30, anyway?

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#2231039 - 04/13/11 11:46 AM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: JOD]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4516
Loc: NW Ohio
Well, having been monitoring oil temps on this truck for a coupla years over my local test track (rural roads in farm country), I can safely state that I'm seeing pretty normal oil temps for the ambient temperature.

I don't have the HTHS for the MC (or the Rotella for that matter) but I presume it to be within the customary range for a 10W30 HDEO 3.5, or thereabouts.

My limitations are mostly in the area of test condition repeatability... the exact ambient temp, engine load etc. My margin for error is necessarily wider than if I was in a dyno lab but it's really close enough for my purposes. All my results so far are certainly within my margin for error. The UOA in another 7500 miles and 15 months or so will tell another part of the story.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2231072 - 04/13/11 12:20 PM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen]
RISUPERCREWMAN Offline


Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 1053
Loc: RHODE ISLAND
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!
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2014 Ram 2500 HD 5.7 Hemi 4x4 16 K miles
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#2231181 - 04/13/11 02:21 PM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: RISUPERCREWMAN]
Gene K Offline


Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 3558
Loc: Decatur AL USA
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


Funny some government entities use 15W40 Fleet Oil in all vehicles including 5.4L 3V Superduties without issue. Ford also authorizes heavier oil in 5.4L 3V with noisy valvetrains in TSB.
_________________________
Gene

2014 Mustang GT 5.0 SC - 675 bhp
PP 10W30 / FL500S

2015 F150 4x4 2.7 EB
PSB Gold 5W30 / FL2062

2015 Enclave 3.6
GM Dexos 5W30 / PF63






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#2231185 - 04/13/11 02:24 PM Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: RISUPERCREWMAN]
Ben99GT Offline


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 4358
Loc: MS
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


False, proven by Oasis special service message 21217.
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2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 321,000 miles- PP 5W-20/MC FL-820S
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - PP Euro 0W-40/Wix 51372XP


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