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Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular #2230874
04/13/11 08:30 AM
04/13/11 08:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline OP
Jim Allen  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Recently began the experiment to see the effects of 10W30 in an '05 5.4L Ford 3V modular V8 with VCT.

Note that I am not doing this because I think it will be "better" for the engine. I am looking for a single oil that will work in my "fleet" of two farm tractors, gas pickup, diesel pickup, car and various small engines and Motorcraft Super Duty 10W30 CJ4/SM diesel oil is vying with Rotella T5 10W30 for that honor. I am willing to make minor compromises in relatively unimportant areas to make this happen. The specs are pretty close for each but maybe you read my post in the diesel forum, so I won't bore you with more on that.

I have been datalogging VCT operation on RP 5W20 over 10K miles as well as oil pressure and oil temp.

I have recorded the following averages (only a few hundred miles on the 10W30):

Hot Oil Pressure:

Idle In Gear-
26 psi @ 190F EOT w/ new 5W20 RP
25 psi @ 188F EOT w/ 10K 5W20 RP
33 psi @ 189F EOT w/ new 10W30 MC

Oil Pressure @ 60 MPH (1800rpm)-
63 psi @ 192F EOT w/new 5W20 RP
59 psi @ 198F EOT w/10K 5W20 RP
67 psi @ 189F EOT w/new 10W30 RP

Cold Oil Pressure, 10W30-
(have misplaced the log sheet for cold starts on 5W20... Gad Zukes)

75 psi @ 49F EOT @ cold start, fast idle
(recall around 70 psi for new 5W20)
70 psi @ 59F EOT @ idle in gear
73 psi @ 100F EOT @ 60 mph
70 psi @ 137F EOT @ 60 mph
45 psi @ 165F EOT @ idle in gear

VCT Operation

Nominal. Thus far, VCT ops with 10W30 seems to be identical to 5W20. The data charts look nearly identical. That surprises me a little but is what it is. I have a problem in that I can only record about 5 minutes of data at a time on my programmer, so it's bit difficult to get "snapshots" in all situations. The only differences I see so far are at the transitions and I have to look REALLY close to see it. Full throttle to a moderately fast release of the throttle into coast, the VCT seems to react a little faster. Could be that I can't make the transition exactly the same as I did before, even though I practiced until I thought I was consistent, but the 10W30 seems a little faster in the transition by a fraction. Probably a "macht nichts" deal anyway.

I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.

Last edited by Jim Allen; 04/13/11 08:37 AM.

Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2230875
04/13/11 08:33 AM
04/13/11 08:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,616
California
oldmaninsc Offline
oldmaninsc  Offline
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,616
California
Interesting to say the least!


2017 Chevrolet Traverse
2013 Chevrolet Impala LT
2005 Toyota Camry LE
2004 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, 1998 Ford F-150 XLT


Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2230926
04/13/11 09:17 AM
04/13/11 09:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,319
texas
Burt Offline
Burt  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,319
texas
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


2011 RX350 53k miles
2015 Fiesta SFE eco-boost 25k miles
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt] #2230944
04/13/11 09:38 AM
04/13/11 09:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
Steve S Offline
Steve S  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?
It is all a compromise!!!


Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt] #2230961
04/13/11 10:02 AM
04/13/11 10:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Rob_Roy Offline
Rob_Roy  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.


2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Burt] #2230968
04/13/11 10:07 AM
04/13/11 10:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
JOD Offline
JOD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess?


no, it doesn't.

As long as the pressure is adequate to provide lubrication, there are no upsides to higher oil pressure than necessary--only downsides (increased seal wear, increased strain on the oil pump, increased friction of the overall system). "High enough" will be specified by the mfg.

In Jim's case, I doubt the difference is enough to worry about. This seems to be a case of trading a small amount of performance for the convenience of having one oil on hand. If I had multiple vehicles, that's a trade off I'd probably consider as well.

Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2230970
04/13/11 10:09 AM
04/13/11 10:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
JOD Offline
JOD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
Jim, did you monitor oil temps at all?

Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2230976
04/13/11 10:11 AM
04/13/11 10:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,312
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,312
Florida
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Originally Posted By: Burt
hmmm...higher pressure means more protection I guess? Higher rate of oil flow and/or more parasitic losses?


Typically flow and pressure are inversely related.

Quote:
I'll keep monitoring and pass along what I observe.


Jim, do you monitor fuel economy? I used to, but I never noticed a difference from engine oil viscosity changes. I would like to switch our "fleet" over to a dual rated 10w30 as well, but I don't want to chance a warranty issue with the '08 Honda.



^your engine will not blow up from a 10w30 and Honda will never know you had it in there. What warranty issues?

Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: JOD] #2230994
04/13/11 10:31 AM
04/13/11 10:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline OP
Jim Allen  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Oil temps are a big issue in this, JOD, and that's why my figures read X pressure @ y EOT (Engine oil temp). You may mean, is oil temp higher overall due to the increased viscosity? Probably so, but that's not my major concern and it wouldn't be by much, IMO. I though about it but can't get an exact enough test situation (stone knives and bearskins kinda testing here, relatively speaking) to see how much different it would be.

As to fuel economy, I monitor it closely. Too soon to tell anything. Given that this truck is almost never short hopped (it's driven long enough to get fully warmed up, the oil I mean), a loss of FE from the heavier oil will be less an issue than it might be with a short-hopped rig. Also, it's seldom parked outside in winter.

For you Honda owners, this same viscosity, and possibly this same oil, will be going into a 2000 Accord V6, which was spec'ed for 5W30 and has run that since day one. It also has VCT. It's driven the same way as the truck... few short hops, and garage kept, so the winter rating won't be much of an issue.

I'd prefer a 5W30 HDEO but they are few and far between and expensive. If I could find some at $3-4/qt, like I can with 10W30 HDEO, I'd be on it like stink on doo-doo.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2230999
04/13/11 10:35 AM
04/13/11 10:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Rob_Roy Offline
Rob_Roy  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
I am not trying to hijack Jim's thread, but regarding the 10w30 in the Honda...I simply meant that the vehicle is still under warranty and in the event of an engine warranty claim, it would be nice to have an engine oil of the proper viscosity in the sump. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to do a UOA and see that a 10w30 HDEO is outside the expected viscosity range for an SAE 20. With that said, I agree that the heavier oil wouldn't hurt anything, but for the sake of a few dollars I will keep running the recommended viscosity in this car.

-Rob


2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2231002
04/13/11 10:39 AM
04/13/11 10:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
JOD Offline
JOD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,218
PNW/WA
yeah, I was wondering if temps overall were higher--or rather, high enough to merit concern for engine cooling and oil breakdown (since I'm sure the oil temps will be higher, I was just wondering "how much higher").

I certainly understand the limitations of the test, since you're limited to the position of the sensors from which you're pulling the data, and you can only log so much data.

I guess my concern would be a significant jump in hths could potentially have the oil running pretty hot due to the increased pressure and friction. What is the hths of the MC10W30, anyway?

Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: JOD] #2231039
04/13/11 11:46 AM
04/13/11 11:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline OP
Jim Allen  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Well, having been monitoring oil temps on this truck for a coupla years over my local test track (rural roads in farm country), I can safely state that I'm seeing pretty normal oil temps for the ambient temperature.

I don't have the HTHS for the MC (or the Rotella for that matter) but I presume it to be within the customary range for a 10W30 HDEO 3.5, or thereabouts.

My limitations are mostly in the area of test condition repeatability... the exact ambient temp, engine load etc. My margin for error is necessarily wider than if I was in a dyno lab but it's really close enough for my purposes. All my results so far are certainly within my margin for error. The UOA in another 7500 miles and 15 months or so will tell another part of the story.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: Jim Allen] #2231072
04/13/11 12:20 PM
04/13/11 12:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,056
RHODE ISLAND
RISUPERCREWMAN Offline
RISUPERCREWMAN  Offline
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,056
RHODE ISLAND
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


2018 Ram 2500 HD 6.4 Hemi Crew Cab 2600K Mi
8'Boss SuperDuty Plow
2017 Harley Davidson Milwaukee 8 Limited 5K Miles
2009 Toyota V6 XLE Camry 71K miles
Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: RISUPERCREWMAN] #2231181
04/13/11 02:21 PM
04/13/11 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,582
Decatur AL USA
Gene K Offline
Gene K  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,582
Decatur AL USA
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


Funny some government entities use 15W40 Fleet Oil in all vehicles including 5.4L 3V Superduties without issue. Ford also authorizes heavier oil in 5.4L 3V with noisy valvetrains in TSB.


Gene

2014 Mustang GT 5.0 SC - 675 bhp
ST Synthetic 10W30 / FL500S

2018 F150 4x4 3.5 EB
OEM Oil & Filter

2018 Lincoln MKX 3.7
OEM Oil & Filter





Re: Preliminary Report: 10W30 in 5.4L 3V Modular [Re: RISUPERCREWMAN] #2231185
04/13/11 02:24 PM
04/13/11 02:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
MS
Ben99GT Offline
Ben99GT  Offline
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
MS
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Using an oil other than Motorcraft/Ford recommended 5w~20 viscosity will give you problems with the cam phasers/vtc's! That's a given!


False, proven by Oasis special service message 21217.


2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 321,000 miles- PP 5W-20/MC FL-820S
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - PP Euro 0W-40/Wix 51372XP

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