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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226525 04/08/11 07:59 PM
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dparm Offline OP
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I was hoping to find the HTHS for the motorcycle 300V 10w40, as it's probably really close to the auto (I saw this with the 5w40). Unfortunately the data doesn't seem to be published.


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: CATERHAM] #2226537 04/08/11 08:09 PM
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dparm Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
One thing that struck me as odd when I was looking at the Motul PDS's, was they didn't list HTHS for the 10w40 300V. I took that as meaning it is about the same as the 5w40.

It's 4.19cP and it's listed here:
http://www.motul-canada.com/en/products/...o_10W40_TDS.pdf
But I think that must be a misprint as it's lower than the 5W-40's 4.51cP. I always thought that was way too high for a 176 VI, KV100 13.8cSt oil.
I think the 161 VI 10W-40 has the 4.51cP HTHS and the 5W-40 the 4.19cP HTHS vis'; that makes a lot more sense.

If someone really wants to know, send me a gallon of each and I'll be more than happy to confirm it!



Realistically how much do you need to determine the HTHS?


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226660 04/08/11 10:07 PM
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CATERHAM, thanks for the good info.


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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226674 04/08/11 10:28 PM
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I'm no oil expert but if we assume the 10W40 and 5W40 have the same base oil and differing VI, lower VI for the 10W40 and higher for the 5W40, I would say that to get that high of a VI index(~200) the 5W40 must contain some VI improvers and has a lighter grade base oil. If I'm recalling the specs right the 5W40's higher volatility and lower flash point support that interpretation.

I think the 10W40 would be the more grade stable and better choice for warmer temperatures and racing. I'm thinking you can't get a VI much over 170 or a grade "spread" over 20 ie (10W30)maybe 30 without VII's no matter if the base oil is ester. I know grade "spread" is kind of dubious.

Both oils are probably pretty sheer resistant, but fuel dilution can also shear VII and fuel dilution is a possibility when running at power enrichment.

Last edited by mechanicx; 04/08/11 10:34 PM.
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226686 04/08/11 10:36 PM
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The first 2000 on the oil didn't show much fuel dilution, even with a track day and several autocrosses. The car is not direct-inject.



2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226692 04/08/11 10:43 PM
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Fuel dilution would probably be more of an issue for short trip driving where the oil never warms up. I still wouldn't totally discount fuel dilution causing some slight loss of viscosity when VII are used. It seems B-S almost never reports fuel dilution while other oil analyzers seem to report it more often. Either way I don't think it is going to be mnuch of an issue with those two oils.

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226701 04/08/11 10:51 PM
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dparm Offline OP
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Well my car is also a DD here in downtown Chicago. 300V's high TBN and TAN are supposed to be good at handling fuel dilution. The 11L sump doesn't hurt either...

I'll stick with the 5w30 for this next change and get another UOA to see how it holds up versus the 5w40.


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226794 04/09/11 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
One thing that struck me as odd when I was looking at the Motul PDS's, was they didn't list HTHS for the 10w40 300V. I took that as meaning it is about the same as the 5w40.

It's 4.19cP and it's listed here:
http://www.motul-canada.com/en/products/...o_10W40_TDS.pdf
But I think that must be a misprint as it's lower than the 5W-40's 4.51cP. I always thought that was way too high for a 176 VI, KV100 13.8cSt oil.
I think the 161 VI 10W-40 has the 4.51cP HTHS and the 5W-40 the 4.19cP HTHS vis'; that makes a lot more sense.

If someone really wants to know, send me a gallon of each and I'll be more than happy to confirm it!



Realistically how much do you need to determine the HTHS?

The difference in HTHS values between Motul 5W-40 and 10W-40 is 0.32cP. That should represent something like a 10 psi oil pressure difference at elevated rev's if the two oils were tested in an OP equipped vehicle.
Having said that, I'm certain the 300V 5W-40 has a HTHS vis no higher than 4.19cP; that's impressive enough for a KV100 13.8cSt oil.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2226862 04/09/11 07:20 AM
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The simplest method is still the best. Divide the kinematic viscosity @100C (in Cst), by the HT/HS viscosity. The lower the number the better.


2020 - Mazda CX-30 - Mobil 1 EP 0w20
2019 - Subaru Impreza - Dealer Oil
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: buster] #2227000 04/09/11 11:54 AM
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CATERHAM Offline
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Originally Posted By: buster
The simplest method is still the best. Divide the kinematic viscosity @100C (in Cst), by the HT/HS viscosity. The lower the number the better.

It's not a bad "blind" predictor of oil shear but simply knowing something of an oil's chemistry and VI level is still the best.
For example M1 0W-40 has a shear factor of 3.55 (13.5/3.8)and the Toyota 0W-20 has a better shear factor of 3.38 (8.8/2.6).
But the Toyota oil definitely shears more than the M1 oil.
That's not surprising since the Toyota 0W-20 has a 214 VI and is a GP III based oil.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2227013 04/09/11 12:25 PM
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That`s always made me wonder if there would be any benefit using monogrades (an SAE30 in the winter and an SAE40 in the summer)?


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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: aquariuscsm] #2227076 04/09/11 02:07 PM
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Zero benefit in both winter and summer.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: CATERHAM] #2227202 04/09/11 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: buster
The simplest method is still the best. Divide the kinematic viscosity @100C (in Cst), by the HT/HS viscosity. The lower the number the better.

It's not a bad "blind" predictor of oil shear but simply knowing something of an oil's chemistry and VI level is still the best.
For example M1 0W-40 has a shear factor of 3.55 (13.5/3.8)and the Toyota 0W-20 has a better shear factor of 3.38 (8.8/2.6).
But the Toyota oil definitely shears more than the M1 oil.
That's not surprising since the Toyota 0W-20 has a 214 VI and is a GP III based oil.



I've been doing a more involved calculation to get a feel for the shear resistance of an oil:

1. Plug the KV40 and KV100 numbers into the Widman Operational Viscosity calculator, and calculate a KV150 number.
2. Take the density at 15C, and multiply by 0.9 to get an estimate for density at 150c.
3. Multiply the numbers from steps 1 and 2 to get a dynamic viscosity at 150c.
4. Divide HTHS by the DV150 number from step 3. This gives the fraction of HTHS to the expected dynamic viscosity of an oil at 150C. The higher the better. POE oils such as Redline and Motul are pretty close to 1.0.

Last edited by A_Harman; 04/09/11 04:48 PM.

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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2227426 04/09/11 07:50 PM
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dparm Offline OP
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<--- Fires up Excel....


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2228005 04/10/11 11:44 AM
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dparm Offline OP
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It's in Google Docs now!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=...uthkey=CMOmna4P


You might be right about the incorrect 10w40 vs 5w40 HTHS values provided by Motul, CATERHAM. The 10w40 is technically the LEAST shear resistant of all the 300V varieties, according to A Harman's formula.

BTW I threw everyone's favorite, GC, in there for grins. I had to use the estimated HTHS of 3.5 and an approximate density @ 15C of 0.88. Also threw in M1 0w40 since that's another high-quality OTS oil. Surprisingly, GC and M1 have almost the same shear resistance. Few some others in there like RLI and Redline, too.

Last edited by dparm; 04/10/11 11:57 AM.

2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
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