Borg warner t5 NWC
- Thread starter digitaldrifter91
- Start date
- Status
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: unDummy
NWC or WC is irrelevant.
They used completely different synchro setups, so it is far from irrelevant.
The non-WC used brass syncho rings, whilst the WC used a twin-cone fiber-lined setup.
The brass-ringed ones call for gear lube, the fiber-lined ones call for ATF.
The spec change from gear lube to ATF was because of the internal changes in the transmission, not just because some retard thought it would be fun idea to screw with the specs.
Found this page on the T5 which may be of interest:
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm
Quote:
All the synchronizer rings are made of solid bronze which are of different size than those found in a World-Class T-5. It is because there is no bearing under each gear and the bronze synchro rings that the NWC T-5 use the heavier Dextron II. Since Dextron II is no longer available the engineers at TREMEC now recommend using straight 50w gear oil.
And a couple pics:
1. The non-WC synchro at the top, the WC three-piece setup on the bottom:
2. WC reduction gear needle bearings (these aren't on the non-WC):
And the source for these images, with some more good info on the difference between these two transmissions:
http://www.5speeds.com/t5/
NWC or WC is irrelevant.
They used completely different synchro setups, so it is far from irrelevant.
The non-WC used brass syncho rings, whilst the WC used a twin-cone fiber-lined setup.
The brass-ringed ones call for gear lube, the fiber-lined ones call for ATF.
The spec change from gear lube to ATF was because of the internal changes in the transmission, not just because some retard thought it would be fun idea to screw with the specs.
Found this page on the T5 which may be of interest:
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm
Quote:
All the synchronizer rings are made of solid bronze which are of different size than those found in a World-Class T-5. It is because there is no bearing under each gear and the bronze synchro rings that the NWC T-5 use the heavier Dextron II. Since Dextron II is no longer available the engineers at TREMEC now recommend using straight 50w gear oil.
And a couple pics:
1. The non-WC synchro at the top, the WC three-piece setup on the bottom:
2. WC reduction gear needle bearings (these aren't on the non-WC):
And the source for these images, with some more good info on the difference between these two transmissions:
http://www.5speeds.com/t5/
What, exactly, is "Dextron II"?
Is that anything like Dexron II?
Is that anything like Dexron II?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: brianl703
What, exactly, is "Dextron II"?
Is that anything like Dexron II?
I'm not quite sure, LOL. I thought that was kind of funny.
What, exactly, is "Dextron II"?
Is that anything like Dexron II?
I'm not quite sure, LOL. I thought that was kind of funny.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Still irrelevant. Nice pictures btw. But, means nothing.
Curious why you feel it is irrelevant? Borg Warner/Tremec seems to disagree with you. And they manufacture it. (This feels a lot like our Ford oil filter discussion, LOL!).
I've owned both trannies. And killed both trannies.
When I got my '87 GT, it had a rebuilt tranny in it. WC T5. Whoever did the rebuild had put gear lube in it instead of ATF. It was an absolute nightmare to shift. It would grind when cold, and shifts were difficult.
I replaced the gear lube with M1 ATF and the transmission shifted like it should. No grinding when cold, smooth shifts....etc. It worked beautifully until a 5K launch on slicks twisted the yoke and shifted the guts of the tranny back 3/4".
After the first tranny went, I used a 4-cyl T5 in there for a while. It was spec'd for gear lube. I put ATF in it and it ground and had notchy shifting. A little Lucas in there to thicken things up and it shifted properly.
Then I wrote off the car, pulled the drivetrain, and put it in the Capri roller I bought. Back to the WC tranny with M1 ATF
Anyways, my experience with the T-5 is that the WC variant likes ATF (which is what it calls for), and the non-WC appears to like something slightly thicker. Not 80w90, but something a little heavier than regular ATF.
Still irrelevant. Nice pictures btw. But, means nothing.
Curious why you feel it is irrelevant? Borg Warner/Tremec seems to disagree with you. And they manufacture it. (This feels a lot like our Ford oil filter discussion, LOL!).
I've owned both trannies. And killed both trannies.
When I got my '87 GT, it had a rebuilt tranny in it. WC T5. Whoever did the rebuild had put gear lube in it instead of ATF. It was an absolute nightmare to shift. It would grind when cold, and shifts were difficult.
I replaced the gear lube with M1 ATF and the transmission shifted like it should. No grinding when cold, smooth shifts....etc. It worked beautifully until a 5K launch on slicks twisted the yoke and shifted the guts of the tranny back 3/4".
After the first tranny went, I used a 4-cyl T5 in there for a while. It was spec'd for gear lube. I put ATF in it and it ground and had notchy shifting. A little Lucas in there to thicken things up and it shifted properly.
Then I wrote off the car, pulled the drivetrain, and put it in the Capri roller I bought. Back to the WC tranny with M1 ATF
Anyways, my experience with the T-5 is that the WC variant likes ATF (which is what it calls for), and the non-WC appears to like something slightly thicker. Not 80w90, but something a little heavier than regular ATF.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
I still say give Pennzoil Synchromesh a try. Thicker than atf,thinner than gear oil.
Last edited:
As you figured out, you picked the gear oil that worked for you.
If the NWC can't downshift with the 80w90 Lucas, then a different gear oil should be used regardless of what the ol' engineers commonly spec'd for no reason whatsoever other than that was what they were putting in their manuals at the time.
If the DexronVI Maxlife 6cst whined that much, I'd probably not go up a single cst and hope that it doesn't whine with 7cst SynchroMax. It probably will whine. So, start with the 9-11cst MTL/MTF SyncroShift Synchromesh equivalents and go from there.
If you think that you're just a tad off with the 80w90, you can simply overfill with a bottle of Lubegard protectant. The other option is to drain out a pint or so and top it off with the ATF. 75w85 is what automakers are using to make up for the shift issues that many cry about when using a 80w90 or 75w90 or SAE90 gear oil. So, I'd step down from the 80w90 to a 75w85 immediately.
NWC/WC doesn't make a difference. Use the gear oil that makes you happy. I prefer to go thicker then ATF in almost all manual transmissions that require ATF like the WC. And, I'll go a tad thinner if those manuals that take 90 weight gear oil and are too difficult to shift.
Again, its irrelevant.
If the NWC can't downshift with the 80w90 Lucas, then a different gear oil should be used regardless of what the ol' engineers commonly spec'd for no reason whatsoever other than that was what they were putting in their manuals at the time.
If the DexronVI Maxlife 6cst whined that much, I'd probably not go up a single cst and hope that it doesn't whine with 7cst SynchroMax. It probably will whine. So, start with the 9-11cst MTL/MTF SyncroShift Synchromesh equivalents and go from there.
If you think that you're just a tad off with the 80w90, you can simply overfill with a bottle of Lubegard protectant. The other option is to drain out a pint or so and top it off with the ATF. 75w85 is what automakers are using to make up for the shift issues that many cry about when using a 80w90 or 75w90 or SAE90 gear oil. So, I'd step down from the 80w90 to a 75w85 immediately.
NWC/WC doesn't make a difference. Use the gear oil that makes you happy. I prefer to go thicker then ATF in almost all manual transmissions that require ATF like the WC. And, I'll go a tad thinner if those manuals that take 90 weight gear oil and are too difficult to shift.
Again, its irrelevant.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
You can also try Royal Purple Synchromax.
- Status
Similar threads
