Eneos 0W20 Coefficient of Friction/ MPG/ Questions

[Best F100]

I stumbled upon the Eneos web site the other day. On it, is a bar graph, touting the coefficient advantages of Eneos 0W20 relative to other synthetic 0W20 oils (including Mobil 1). With Eneos being the "oil of choice" (when cost is no object), of many Toyota and Honda owners (especially hybirds) - what do you think of this? If this link does not work, someone else please make the attachment for me.


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Questions:
1) Is a low coefficient of friction in a motor oil, a bigger factor to mpg gains than A) a low cst@40C and 100C numbers or )B a low HT/HS?

2) Is low engine wear a a result with a low coefficient of friction?

3) Is this all just an exercise in marketing and academic nonsense?

Currently using Amsoil 0W20 in a 2010 Ford Focus, while getting up to 35 mpg on the highway. On a side note, I find it mildly amusing that many Honda and Toyota owners first reach for Motorcraft 5W20 (a Ford spec oil), when given a choice. I have a stockpile of the recently clearanced Motorcraft 5W20 FULL Synthetic ready to "report for duty" when this Amsoil runs out. Paid $2.00/qt this past summer at Advanced Auto Parts.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Best F100

1) Is a low coefficient of friction in a motor oil, a bigger factor to mpg gains than A) a low cst@40C and 100C numbers or )B a low HT/HS?


COF among oils of similar grades will be much less significant than the COF's of different grades--so WRT fuel economy, HT/HS will be much more significant

Originally Posted By: Best F100
2) Is low engine wear a a result with a low coefficient of friction?


Technically, yes. Is it enough to matter? I don't know how they're expressing the data, but my general thought is that 100% of nothing is still nothing... We're talking about very marginal differences among all motor oils, even more so when comparing within grade.

Originally Posted By: Best F100
3) Is this all just an exercise in marketing and academic nonsense?


IMO, yes.

Originally Posted By: Best F100
Currently using Amsoil 0W20 in a 2010 Ford Focus, while getting up to 35 mpg on the highway. On a side note, I find it mildly amusing that many Honda and Toyota owners first reach for Motorcraft 5W20 (a Ford spec oil), when given a choice. I have a stockpile of the recently clearanced Motorcraft 5W20 FULL Synthetic ready to "report for duty" when this Amsoil runs out. Paid $2.00/qt this past summer at Advanced Auto Parts.


That's a crazy price for the MC full synthetic. If it balances things out at all, I'm using Toyota's 0W20 in my Ford...

 

[NateDN10]

The correct link.

They're basically saying fuel economy (in some unknown engine) is 1.75% better (4.9% gain divided by 2.8% gain) than 10W-30. That's a very small number - less than 1/2 mpg.

I don't know to what extent COF affects wear.

 

[Steve S]

What is wrong ith the motorcraft oil? What makes the oil brand specific?

 

[XS650]

Their test

Quote:
Test Description:
SRV Oscillation Friction & Wear Test is a standard method used in testing eective of oil and additives in
oil with respect to coecient of friction, wear and fretting corrosion (tribocorrosion).
Default test consist of 2 hours oscillating of a ball on a disk with 300 N force. Approximately 2 to 3 drops
of the test oil are spread between the 2 contacting surface.
A recorder plots a coecient of friction diagram of the friction parameters throughout the test. By
analyzing coecient of friction prole along with other optical measurements, the lubricant can be
assessed for its anti-wear and fuel eciency characteristics.


doesn't make any more sense for an engine oil than the infamous 4-ball test does.

If they had any real evidence of fuel economy or engine life improvements, they would include it in their ad, doncha think?

 

[Hokiefyd]

I wonder what the "OE Genuine 0W-20" oil is. It apparently as as low of a COF, compared with the Eneos oil. One conclusion I draw from their illustration is this: if they're trying to design Eneos to be the best analog to "OE Genuine" oil available, why not just use the "OE Genuine" oil?

I can only assume this (the "OE Genuine" to which they refer) is the Honda or Toyota 0W-20 oil, as they're the only mainline automakers that I know of who have OE blends of 0W-20 oil.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Best F100

1) Is a low coefficient of friction in a motor oil, a bigger factor to mpg gains than A) a low cst@40C and 100C numbers or )B a low HT/HS?


COF among oils of similar grades will be much less significant than the COF's of different grades--so WRT fuel economy, HT/HS will be much more significant


COF can have a significant effect on the degree of correlation between HTHS and fuel economy.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Best F100

1) Is a low coefficient of friction in a motor oil, a bigger factor to mpg gains than A) a low cst@40C and 100C numbers or )B a low HT/HS?


COF among oils of similar grades will be much less significant than the COF's of different grades--so WRT fuel economy, HT/HS will be much more significant


COF can have a significant effect on the degree of correlation between HTHS and fuel economy.



Sure. But if you're comparing oils with the same HT/HS, the COF among those different oils (and the resultant difference in fuel economy), will be negligible. This sell sheet seems to suggest otherwise, and does so pretty deceptively since it then uses a 10W30 comparison to tout its fuel economy advantages??

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Best F100

1) Is a low coefficient of friction in a motor oil, a bigger factor to mpg gains than A) a low cst@40C and 100C numbers or )B a low HT/HS?


COF among oils of similar grades will be much less significant than the COF's of different grades--so WRT fuel economy, HT/HS will be much more significant


COF can have a significant effect on the degree of correlation between HTHS and fuel economy.



Sure. But if you're comparing oils with the same HT/HS, the COF among those different oils (and the resultant difference in fuel economy), will be negligible. This sell sheet seems to suggest otherwise, and does so pretty deceptively since it then uses a 10W30 comparison to tout its fuel economy advantages??


Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
As for the effect of these viscosities on fuel economy, most frictional losses occur in the bearings and ring/cylinder wall interface. Both of these areas are under high shear rates, so all else being equal the HTHS viscosity should correlate better with mileage than kinematic viscosity. Of course, all things are rarely equal, so friction modifiers, polar base oils, VI Improver quantity and type, engine shear rates, and temperature will have some influence on this correlation. Furthermore, if the HTHS viscosity gets too low, friction can increase as parts move into elastohydrodynamic or boundary regimes (Stribeck curve), so the correlation of HTHS viscosity to fuel economy is only valid within a range.

So in conclusion, fuel economy generally correlates to HTHS viscosity, except when it doesn't.

Originally Posted By: HTHS Oil Viscosity Measurement and Relation to Engine Operation
With regard to engine friction measurements, correlations with HTHS viscosity are documented for comparisons made in the same engine under the same operating conditions. However, even under well-controlled conditions, the friction-modifying properties of the DI package in each oil can influence the degree of correlation. Under cyclic engine-operating conditions, fuel economy measurements correlate better with HTHS viscosity than with kinematic viscosity.
The data referenced in DS-62 demonstrate several clear advantages of HTHS viscosity over kinematic viscosity in predicting engine performance. However, no single measure of oil rheology correlated perfectly with all of the engine parameters reviewed, probably because of the fact that each measure of engine performance is to some extent affected by both oil rheology and oil chemistry. Because of the variety of engines, oils, and operating conditions used in the referenced works, the effects of oil rheology and chemistry are inextricably mixed.


http://books.google.com/books?id=XjTaOqEgHeEC&printsec=frontcover&dq

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
However, even under well-controlled conditions, the friction-modifying properties of the DI package in each oil can influence the degree of correlation.


I certainly agree--in a theoretical sense. When comparing oils of similar HT/HS though, the actual difference is going to be very close to noise of measurement--which is why they aren't making any FE claims compared to other 0W20's....


Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Under cyclic engine-operating conditions, fuel economy measurements correlate better with HTHS viscosity than with kinematic viscosity.


Yep, there's no question that HT/HS viscosity dominates the equation WRT fuel economy. That's not what the sell sheet suggests, though--which is why I think it's misleading.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I wonder what the "OE Genuine 0W-20" oil is. It apparently as as low of a COF, compared with the Eneos oil. One conclusion I draw from their illustration is this: if they're trying to design Eneos to be the best analog to "OE Genuine" oil available, why not just use the "OE Genuine" oil?

I can only assume this (the "OE Genuine" to which they refer) is the Honda or Toyota 0W-20 oil, as they're the only mainline automakers that I know of who have OE blends of 0W-20 oil.

ENEOS, the house brand of Nippon Oil, is the original OE supplier or maker of the Toyota Brand 0W-20. Not surprisingly, the 0W-20 oils of ENEOS and Toyota and Honda are very similar formulations. All have VI's over 200 and have very high organic moly levels.

The COF levels of different oil chemistries is something that I find quite interesting.
Prior to the appearance of ENEOS in the NA marketplace, Red Line has claimed to have the "lowest COF (of any oil) available". RL oils also contain very high levels of moly.
RLI oils also claim to have high "lubricity" vs conventional oils. Not sure if that is a reference to a low COF but I suspect it is.

 

[buster]

CAT, where do you buy the Toyota oil? Is the Honda VI over 200 as well? Thanks

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: buster
CAT, where do you buy the Toyota oil? Is the Honda VI over 200 as well? Thanks

Not surprisingly, the Toyota can be sourced from any Toyota or Lexus dealer. Nippon Oil in NA is no longer the supplier of the Toyota Brand 0W-20, XOM got the contract but the formulation is much the same, i.e., a 200 plus VI and boat load of moly.

The Idemetsu made Honda 0W-20 has a VI of 200 according to Idemetsu and 203 as determined by Dyson in a VOA provided by BruceT as follows:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1782588&page=1

Cheers