GREASES .. what is Fiber length

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I've seen several references to fiber length when refering to grease,Is this just a way to describe texture,or a reference to the thickener or an indication of how a grease can perform?

[ June 19, 2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Fiber length is a texture measurement. Take a small sample and press it between your finger and thumb,and slowly draw apart;

buttery,separates in short peaks no visible fibers.

Smooth, surface is free of irregularities

Stringy, tends to stretch out into long fine threads,with no visible evidence of fiber structure.

Short fiber, shows breakoff with evidence of fibers.

Long fiber, tendency to stretch out into a single bundle of fibers.

See lubricant analysis is still not just test tubes etc!
 
Grease is a complex of 4 items...

base complex..
tackifier...
base oil....
additives...

When looking at any grease all parts are equally important.

Unfortunatly a lot of consumers are told by sales people that the tac of a grease as the main component that makes grease better than others.

Some demos to show how tac holds up is by putting a dab of grease on a surface, then smacking it with a hammer to show how the tac hold's the grease in place (and hoping the grease being tested doesn't splatter all over you). Another way, is to take a dab between your fingers and pulling them apart. This too will show how much tac is used. In that little test, you can actually count the amount of "strings" or "fibers" that stay attached. This too would prove the same basic point as smacking it with a hammer.

Tac is there to hold the grease in the bearing.
The complex also plays a role in a good grease.

There is many complex's available and used by grease manufactures.

1. Lithium
2. Lithium 12-Hydroxysterate
3. Lithium Complex
4. Calcium
5. Calcium 12-Hydroxysterate
7. Calcium Complex
8. Barium
9. Barium Complex
10. Aluminum Complex
11. Bentone
12. Polyurea

Now the most popular complex that you will see used is the lithium complex. Almost everyone has a tube of lithium in their shop.

So what does that do? It holds the base oil used as the lubrication for the bearings. Oil cannot just be poured over a bearing as it would simply run out of the bearing, therefore the complex holds it in place until it is needed. As the complex heats up it allows the oil to dispurse and lubricate. As the complex cools back down it is suppose to absorb the oil back into the complex. Here is where it starts to get sticky.. This is called reversability. This is a measurement of how well the complex can take the oil back into the complex. If the complex cannot take back in to oil, then the oil will seep out and leave nothing but the complex and tac. Example of this is when you pulled the cap off the front wheels of your car or boat trailer and see the wax buildup in the little cap. So this is a very important part of a grease as it is what maintains the grease together.

More on the complex, Why so many different types?, There is certain applications needing certain types. Extreme high temps like 900degs would use a bentone(clay base) grease.

Here is one of the biggest problems that a grease has and many have experienced this..
Ever see a grease turn milky looking? Alot of people have, especially the ones sitting on the side of the road with wheel bearings wiped out.

The cause, water mixing with the complex. The most popular complex (lithium) tends to do this more than some others. Lithium complex is a soap base and will emulsify with water or retain water in the complex thus the milky color. Of course water has what kind of effect on metal parts? Another thing water does is thin out the complex and then the oil will milk up and then the complex cannot retain the oil.

To see what I'm talking about try this.. Take a dab of grease in the palm of one hand and put some water on it. Now with your index finger, mix the water into the grease and see how it turns milky and if enough water milks in, it will start to actually thin out or breakdown.

Consider that most equipment sitting outside, or expose to high levels of cold and heat will be affected by moisture.

These are some of the reasons I will not use this complex myself. Unfortunatly most bearing manufactures tell you that lithium is what they recommend and of course it is easier to obtain at just about any parts house.

Now alot of people think that if it is a synth grease as many are now adays, that it will perform better. Well, just like motor oils, if extended drains are needed or extreme temps are met, then a synth will be a good option but in most cases where grease is used, I find, your application is more frequent due to the water washout and such and that if the complex washes out so does your synth oil. There fore, alot of wasted money in that case. No, I'm not saying that synth is worthless but with a high moisture application such as a boat trailer or in cooling systems where high moisture is present, using a lithium grease it is.

Ep additives is another part of a good grease. There is extreme pressures present in all bearings as all the weight of your equipment is riding on the bottom of that bearing thus it will squeeze out the hydrodynamic properties of any oil thus relying on the barrier additive properties of the grease. Most use a zddp or zinc type of additive and then some of the more expensive use moly. Now again, both work well, moly seems to provide a better barrier than zinc under really extreme pressures as well as moly has a higher resistance to heat. Again though, If your complex washes out, the barrier additive does as well.

Are you starting to see where the complex can dictate a better grease than just tac? I have seen some greases with dang near pure tac and it looks like bubble gum. Problem though is when the complex washes out taking the oil out, you have bubble gum in your bearings with no lubrication.

The more tac needed, the less lubrication(or oil) is usually the case, so depending on your bearing speed, determines the tac. the higher speed bearings tend to use less tac whereas the slower ones can have more.

If you want to avoid water wash out use an aluminum complex grease with moly and it will not mix with water thus lasting longer and you ultimatly don't have to grease as much and end up using much less over the period of a year and end up saving you money in the long run. Also aluminum complex will mix with any other base complex with exception to a bentone which wont mix with anything.

Well, that is grease 101.

[ May 31, 2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Thanks In what order of importance would you select a grease by,I would think base complex,base oil,additives,tac.The last two being interchangable depending on environment.The reason being I work in a food plant and I was made the contact person to deal with a new vendor and I'm trying to cram.(Books havn't arrived yet from noria)all in all a very interesting field.By the way Ive seen the hammer test.
worshippy.gif
 
In choosing a good grease, first is the complex.. aluminum would be my choice, then barrier additive. this would be my second, in every bearing load, you are trying to extend the life of the bearing. To accomplish this, the oil and complex will be pushed aside when the extreme pressure of the load is on the bearing, so like in a regular application a moly grease is great and handles ep's up to 500,000psi.. but in the food grade issue, it will require a zinc barrier additive. With a good barrier additive, then the tac would be next.. most applications need only a #2 grade grease. Only in extreme situations require a #3 and only in cold situations would a #1 be pratical. Then last, the base oil, now considering the barrier additive used, If you are using a good barrier additive with high levels of ep, then the base oil isn't a real biggy as it will provide adiquate lubrication with the other items in place. I would recommend a synthblend base oil which is very practicle and has the best of both worlds. You should be able to get something that does that for under 3.00 a tube with no problem.
Hope that helps.
 
Good replies. I like to recommend a Bentonite/Moly/Graphite grease for most high wear outside heavy use unless the rpm is high. It normally repels water. All higher rpm, or higher load, I recommend a good polyurea complex grease with a Group II base oil like Chevron Black Pearl - or SRI for 10,000 rpm. If you need food grade, that is another thing.
If you want to read good spec sheets that are more than just marketing, check out
http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lubes/compprd9.nsf/NAChev?openform and type Grease in the search box.
 
Although a betonite grease is a quality grease, The only time a bentonite grease is advisable is in exteme heat situations such as on an asphault pavement machine where the bearing has upwards of 700+ degs.

The main reason not to use such a grease is that it will not mix with most any other complex and will cause problems as most companies have other types of complexes laying around and employees tend to pickup anything and use it anywhere therefore contaminating the bearing with the mix and causing premature bearing failures.

This is just another reason an alum complex is a better choice as it will mix with any other complex with betonite as the only exception.
 
For heavy duty applications, such as U-joints, ball-joints, and other such applications at low speed/high load, I would go with an ester-based moly grease.

For highr speed higher temp applications, I prefer an ester-based lithium grease.
 
Bob,can you recommend any aluminum-complex,moly containing greases that are readily available(over-the-counter,preferably).I have been using the Valvoline syn-blend because it has moly(but I assume it isn't aluminum).
If there are not easily obtainable aluminum's available,what's next?Something like the Valvoline I'm using?
BTW,GREAT primer on greases.Thanks!
 
i'll have to check here and see about the otc's. I remember seeing one at a napa store and thought it was valvolines but not sure. will get back with you on that.

Of course you can also order it from tim as well, less than 3.00 a tube. look at the order page on our main page for texarkana with his 800#.
 
Molakule, I have 6 inches of scar tissue on my derriere from having once recommended a 3% moly grease for all applications for a coal company. Within a few months the company began having u-joint failures galore! On inspection of the U-Joints we found that the moly had centrifuged to the outer portions of the needle bearings, preventing new grease and replenishment oil from reaching the outer portions. In fact the outer portions of the needles had been eroded away from the pure moly! Thus the failures. I then switched them from one universal to two specialized. i.e. Moly additized for the plain bearings and non moly for the non friction bearings. Problem gone.. That was 10 years ago.... I still have the failed U joints in our warehouse as a reminder..
Standing by for discussion.. :)

[ September 08, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: GeorgeCLS ]
 
I'd have to say that must have been some isolated situation with that brand of grease as I have yet to see that problem ever exists with any of schaeffers moly greases with any of our clients equipment.

Maybe their mix was not correct?
 
BOB, WHICH ONE OF THE SCHAEFFERS GREASES WOULD YOU RECOMEND FOR CAR WHEEL BEARINGS ALONG WITH AUTOMOTIVE SUSPENSION COMPONETS? THANKS, MIKEYOILNUTT.
 
Bob, I recently repacked the front wheel bearings in my small pickup truck with Schaeffer #238 Moly Supreme. I now see you recommend #800 for automotive use. Do I need to redo this bearing lubrication? Also, since I live very close to you, do you keep the #800 in grease gun tubes? Thank you.
 
Down here the 238 works just fine. That is the same grease I use in mine as well as many of my customers down here do.

Normally I don't recommend the 221 as a standard because in many areas this would be too thick for certain given temps.

The 238 is a heavier grease that is used in hotter areas such as where we are and in heavier equipment applications.

I have a truck lube center on commonwealth that buys the 221 because it is slightly less expensive than the 238 and they do have the 221 in tubes near by you if you want to get some of that. Myself, I maintain the 238 in tubes here.
 
I have 5 product data sheets for 3% moly greases from 5 different grease manufacturers that state "for use on heavily loaded sliding surfaces only. Do not use this moly additized grease in non-friction type bearings as the moly will cause premature bearing failures" or some variation of those words...
And from my previous post, I can attest from my personal experience, same. I have seen more than I care to of "frosted mug" bearing surfaces, again, from in applications where moly additized grease had been used. Moly is harder than the bearing and race surfaces of non-friction bearings. As the bearing rolls, the moly is roled over by the softer bearing surface, causing the bearing surface roughness, erosion. Since this seems to be an industry accepted standard, what makes the Schaeffer moly additized different? Is it "softer" Moly?? More info, please.........
George
 
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