Times change, many refuse to change with them

[Autobahn88]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Does that mean that they should be treated second rate to a person with a college degree.

So I take it you believe, and are willing to pay for, a gardener, store clerk...etc...to be paid like a doctor?


No I am not, Some professions deserve to get paid more then others. But, to penalize a person because he or she does not have a college degree is a pretty snobish statement. The U.S is suppose to give everyone the right to the persuit health and happiness. What you are trying to state is that maybe they should introduce the class system where people that who did not get a college degree should never get paid over a certain amount. Some of the responses to this post are pretty shocking.

 

[fdcg27]

Well, back in my youth, I too lived with many American cars, and they weren't materially worse than the imported cars then available.
The horrors of some of the poorly supported European makes in the late 'sixties and early 'seventies are well known.
From Asia, a few bad jokes, like the Subaru 360, actually made it to the US.
Imagine the poor fellow who bought something really complicated, like a Citroen, in the late 'sixties, only to have the dealer network evaporate a few years later.
The American product of the time was at least simple and strightforward to repair, and had a stable dealer network to support it.
It was just that the imports were often so much more interesting and entertaining to drive and to own.
I think we have seen a generational change, in that those who started buying imports when they were thirty something found them good, and have have stayed with them.
Those of us who dared buy something American once in a while, like our now moribund Aerostar, often found them to be good as well.
My point was that in a market full of valid and attractive vehicles, neither GM nor the UAW can expect wage and employment levels to ever again approach those that existed when GM ruled the American roost.
If you are 49, then you were around when GM's US market share was greater than that of every other maker combined.
Alas, GM is now less than half of its former self, by volume.

 

[mechanicx]

I completely agree with all your points. Myself, family and associates have had experience with many GM vehicles and most all of them were pretty good compared against other comparable makes. There were certain time frames, I want to say between the mid-80's to mid 90's that domestics had cheap interior and some body hardware compared to Japanese, but the domestics were always a good value, fairly reliable and offered advantages in other areas. They never really deserved the rep they got mostly from auto media who had a vested interests in promoting imports.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Autobahn88
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Does that mean that they should be treated second rate to a person with a college degree.

So I take it you believe, and are willing to pay for, a gardener, store clerk...etc...to be paid like a doctor?


No I am not, Some professions deserve to get paid more then others. But, to penalize a person because he or she does not have a college degree is a pretty snobish statement. The U.S is suppose to give everyone the right to the persuit health and happiness. What you are trying to state is that maybe they should introduce the class system where people that who did not get a college degree should never get paid over a certain amount. Some of the responses to this post are pretty shocking.


Key word there is pursuit.

You have the right to pursue it. Whether or not you attain it is, to a degree, in your hands. I say 'to a degree' to acknowledge that all may be born equal under the constitution, but equality begins and ends there.

The class system never disappeared. Hence the use of terms to describe the different socioeconomic strata, like the working class, the middle class, etc.

What's changed is that you are no longer condemned, before birth, to remain within the class you were born into. The reality, though, is that most people remain within the same socioeconomic demographic they were born into; and if they move at all, it is more often downward than upward.

The tool's that enable equality are things like education. Everyone is entitled to a certain publicly funded baseline. What you do with that, and where you go from highschool, is to a degree up to you.

To a degree, because if you're born into a family with wealth then you have an environmental advantage in attaining that education. Many manage to do so without it. And not everyone who succeeds academically goes on to become well off; while others became millionaires with little formal education.

Those are the exceptions to the norm. Compare education levels to income levels and you will see a high correlation. It does not guarantee you will succeed, and there are those who succeed without it; but with it, you are a more valuable commodity on the market and you are more likely to earn more.

Look at it as opportunity cost: Jack and Jill graduate high school; both are from similar working class families and both did equally well in public schooling. Jill decides after high school graduation she wants to get a job, by a car, get her own apartment away from her parents. She plans to go to college in a year or two while she waits tables and collects good tips in the meantime; she also has it in the back of her mind that she could save money this way for school so she doesn't have to work part-time while in school.

Jack in the meantime gets a job at the same bar as Jill. He makes the same pay and does as well on tips. He has decided before graduation on what he would do, and is pursuing that through college attending nights while staying at home and foregoing a car because he can not afford that, or rent for an apartment, and still go to college.

Four years pass by. Jack graduates, moves right into his chosen profession and begins making much more money: now he has his own place and his own car. Jill is still working, and thinks every once in awhile about what she'll do in school once she gets tired of being a waitress.

From an opportunity cost perspective, Jack has to make more money than Jill to make up for the alternatives his time and money spent on college cost him. If he didn't, there would be no financial incentive to fore go other opportunities one could devote 3 or 4 years of their life to instead, and there'd be a lot fewer colleges.

-Spyder

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
[

The class system never disappeared. Hence the use of terms to describe the different socioeconomic strata, like the working class, the middle class, etc.


You have that right. I think the US has one of the most severe class systems you'll find in the developed world today.

Quote:


What's changed is that you are no longer condemned, before birth, to remain within the class you were born into.


-Spyder


This MAY have been true for a very brief period of time from about the 1940s-1980..but I would say that today, even with a college degree and the ability to do the job unless you have "connections" you will likely not get anywhere in life at least in the USA. I've personally experienced this scenario.

Nepotism is rife in the US today, with the top 2% of the income earners having almost 95% of the nations wealth, and they aim to keep it that way..

Sorry to break it to folks but for the most part unless you have come from wealth and privilege you simply won't have access to a better life.



T

 

[Spazdog]

Quote:
For decades, they dumped oversized, underquality products into the market with the arrogant, "take it or leave it" attitude.


Let's take a look at that statement with arguably the weakest of the Big 3, Chrysler:

The original Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon was a vaguely Americanized French Simca Horizon with a 1.7 liter Volkswagen engine. Using the French platform allowed Chrysler to beat GM and Ford to the punch with a FWD platform to compete with the VW Rabbit and Honda Accord. Chrysler would later goof up the design with the K-car 2.2 and Peugeot 1.6. But I've never met anyone who owned an early 1.7 VW powered Omni/rizon that didn't think it was a great car. (2.2 owners? Not so much)
In summary, it met a need to compete with Honda and Volkswagen. It wasn't government forced.

Fast forward to the Neon. Chrysler's first in-house small car.
After trying to compete with the Cavalier/Civic/Corolla/Sentra/Jetta unsucessfully with the Mitsubishi built Colt, The went for the kill. Lower MSRP, more horsepower, (and more importantly) more torque, and handling good enough to compete in SCCA.
It wasn't a "take it or leave it" arrangement. It wasn't government mandated to improve thier fleet economy average. It was an attempt to compete in a market segment that Honda and Toyota owned outright.
you make a better product than the other guys and you sell it for less, you're going to hurt them.

Now as it turns out, the early Neons had head gasket scrubbing issues and Chrysler goofed up again by just sitting on the basic design for WAY too long. There were some small improvenments after 5 years and the brilliant SRT/4 variant, but it was all too little too late.
Good idea, badly executed by Chrysler Certainly better than the good chassis/ bad engine marriage of the Ford Escort(Mazda B-chassis/Ford CVH constant vibration and harshness engine) Much better than the low-tech pushrod engine Cavalier
But plenty of people bought them.

 

[Autobahn88]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
[

The class system never disappeared. Hence the use of terms to describe the different socioeconomic strata, like the working class, the middle class, etc.


You have that right. I think the US has one of the most severe class systems you'll find in the developed world today.

Quote:


What's changed is that you are no longer condemned, before birth, to remain within the class you were born into.


-Spyder


This MAY have been true for a very brief period of time from about the 1940s-1980..but I would say that today, even withcollege degree and the ability to do the job unless you have "connections" you will likely not get anywhere in life at least in the USA. I've personally experienced this scenario.

Nepotism is rife in the US today, with the top 2% of the income earners having almost 95% of the nations wealth, and they aim to keep it that way..

Sorry to break it to folks but for the most part unless you have come from wealth and privilege you simply won't have access to a better life.




T


You make some valid points here. I read a good article on how the US is quickly becoming a third world country in so much as the middle class, which in fact gave the US all those years of great living, is dissappearing at an astonishing rate. All that will be left in the U.S will be the wealthy and the rest of the population which will be the working poor. With all of the outsourcing and record profits of major corp on the backs of the cutbacks dealt to employees I see a very broken system. And to hear some people here applaud [censored] wages, well is pretty disappointing and scary.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
It still boggles my mind that unskilled workers think they have a right to a $28/hour job. Are you SERIOUS? Get real. I bet they had 100 applicants for every one of those $14/hour jobs, many of which had college degrees and who used to be white collar workers.



Actually, the vast majority of those willing to work for $14 an hour are probably illegal immigrants....

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Quote:
For decades, they dumped oversized, underquality products into the market with the arrogant, "take it or leave it" attitude.


Let's take a look at that statement with arguably the weakest of the Big 3, Chrysler:

The original Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon was a vaguely Americanized French Simca Horizon with a 1.7 liter Volkswagen engine. Using the French platform allowed Chrysler to beat GM and Ford to the punch with a FWD platform to compete with the VW Rabbit and Honda Accord. Chrysler would later goof up the design with the K-car 2.2 and Peugeot 1.6. But I've never met anyone who owned an early 1.7 VW powered Omni/rizon that didn't think it was a great car. (2.2 owners? Not so much)
In summary, it met a need to compete with Honda and Volkswagen. It wasn't government forced.

Fast forward to the Neon. Chrysler's first in-house small car.
After trying to compete with the Cavalier/Civic/Corolla/Sentra/Jetta unsucessfully with the Mitsubishi built Colt, The went for the kill. Lower MSRP, more horsepower, (and more importantly) more torque, and handling good enough to compete in SCCA.
It wasn't a "take it or leave it" arrangement. It wasn't government mandated to improve thier fleet economy average. It was an attempt to compete in a market segment that Honda and Toyota owned outright.
you make a better product than the other guys and you sell it for less, you're going to hurt them.

Now as it turns out, the early Neons had head gasket scrubbing issues and Chrysler goofed up again by just sitting on the basic design for WAY too long. There were some small improvenments after 5 years and the brilliant SRT/4 variant, but it was all too little too late.
Good idea, badly executed by Chrysler Certainly better than the good chassis/ bad engine marriage of the Ford Escort(Mazda B-chassis/Ford CVH constant vibration and harshness engine) Much better than the low-tech pushrod engine Cavalier
But plenty of people bought them.


You know your Chrysler history or at least as far as I can tell. The Omni/Horizon was a good car. I think the Cavalier had better styling but the Omni had what I'd consider equal suspension. The 80's Escort was the roughest piece of junk. But most of GM FWD platforms from the 80's were pretty sound. I use to see them motoring around 10-15 years old in the past.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
First the good news. 1,550 jobs saved bringing Aveo assembly stateside and building the new Buick Verano. With 60% of the jobs getting the old UAW wage and the other 40% getting the new UAW wage....

http://www.freep.com/article/20101007/BU...-at-Orion-plant


But then the bad news. I can understand the angst at having two different pay scales. But at some point these guys have got to realize there are thousands that would line up and gladly do that job for $14/hr. The UAW is cutting their own throats, yet again...


http://www.freep.com/article/20101008/BU...-over-wage-cuts

So you think a take home pay of around $385 in the year 2010 is progress? Maybe you can work two of those jobs and pay your rent. Then again food is overrated, and the walk to work will keep you healthy. At those wages you won't be able to afford a old car, never mind a new one. How about trying to live on those wages before opening your mouth about lining up for them.,


Never said it was progress, if asked to label it. I would call it reality.

I have stated many times that Henry Ford would be sick to learn his new hires can't afford to buy the cars they are building. But faced with reality and the new world economy, the realist in me has to acknowledge that $14/hr is better than $00/hr. Without wage concessions every one of those jobs would remain/be moved offshore, what good does that do anyone?

What is your solution?


My solution would be for Americans to worry more about taking care of Americans and worry less about competing in the world market. The longer we try to compete in the world market, the closer we get to being a 3rd world country. Corporate tax laws need to be changed to stop giving breaks to those who outsource. Things need to be changed so that it's more cost effective for companies to have stuff made here in the U.S. while paying their employees decent wages rather than having them made overseas.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: grampi
[



My solution would be for Americans to worry more about taking care of Americans and worry less about competing in the world market. The longer we try to compete in the world market, the closer we get to being a 3rd world country. Corporate tax laws need to be changed to stop giving breaks to those who outsource. Things need to be changed so that it's more cost effective for companies to have stuff made here in the U.S. while paying their employees decent wages rather than having them made overseas.


And high tariffs on anything from a nation that uses slave wage tactics...

 

[OVERKILL]

Or just be like Germany.

There's a reason the Germans almost succeeded in world domination. They have an incredible pride in themselves and what they create. And while we may not judge everything they make as "the best" on a world scale, you won't find stores riddled with imports from China lining the shelves there.

I have a set of German wrenches. A good friend of mine, who is German, gave them to me. They are very high quality and were very reasonably priced; nothing near the price of Snap-On for example.

My sister was recently in Germany on a trip (last month). I was curious and asked her about how much imported stuff she saw there.... She stopped for a second and couldn't recall seeing anything that wasn't German. I'm sure there were SOME things, but over here you have to try very hard just to find something made in North America, let alone your own country. That is not the case there.

I think it may come as a surprise to many, but outsourcing production, R&D and whatever else increases profits to 3rd world nations is not an entirely global phenomena. And a little country not much larger than New Brunswick gave the world a VERY good idea just what a lot of very determined, organized and industrious people can accomplish. As horrendous as that outcome was, I think there is a lesson there.

During WWII, Americans ramped up their industry. Companies like Ford used their facilities to build bombers for the US airforce. And they were far from the only one!

How would that situation play out now, now that we're a "globalized" continent? Now that many of the companies who pitched in for the war effort are now manufacturing their products on another continent?

I have a feeling we've sold our souls for the bottom-line and it will eventually come back to haunt us. With the US debt being sold to the communists, industry being shipped overseas, and the very same class who broke their backs to drag us through WWII now living in poverty, many now unemployed, the jobs that used to be there, now being done in some sweat shop in China... I wonder how this would look to Truman and Roosevelt? And for the Canadians, William Lyon Mackenzie King?

I've got more opinions on this matter. And that's all these are, simply my opinions. However, I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


You are making apples and oranges comparisons. I never said that all work should pay the same. I said a production worker who is productive every moment of an hour is worth a decent wage. Attorneys aren't always working productively at all hours of the work day and aren't always worth what they charge, but my point wasn't that college educated workers are overpayed. I didn't mean to say that workers with advanced degrees shouldn't make more, but a lot of them are of questionable value, and not having a college degree does not mean you are not worth compensation. When your car is crank and no start that "greasy" mechanic is worth every bit of $60 an hour and no lawyer or college degree will fix it. A lot of mechanics have 2 years of technical training and years of experience. But to get this back on my original point CEOs don't always have degrees or maybe a bachelors and can make millions. A college education does not automatically make you productive or valuable even if it does make you more compensated. You can also have a college degree and be underpayed/overworked. Underpaying seems to be the trend now. I don't believe autoworkers are being overpayed.


Who said a college degree made you more compensated necessarily? There are plenty of struggling college graduates out there. Especially recent graduates.

However, if you went to a high-demand, selective university, and majored in a high-demand field, and made good grades while you were at it, that would probably increase demands for your skills and thusly your pay.

It's all about supply and demand.

By the way, it's overpaid, not overpayed.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


But the problem is there are more skilled/educated people than jobs. If they don't have a contract they too can be replaced with lower cost workers. Collective bargaining can give leverage to the skilled workers as well. And what is the AMA, ADA etc but nothing more than unions for Drs. and Dentist etc to protect their interests.


Ugh.

Yes, there are more skilled people than jobs, however, not all is equal. Experience and relative skill level come into it. Then there's the job of promoting yourself, some do it better than others. It's a competitive marketplace for most skilled jobs and you have to compete to win.

Yes, skilled jobs can be replaced by lower cost workers and have been in some cases, for example, IT outsourcing to India. A collective bargaining agreement will not help reclaim those jobs, however. For collective bargaining to work it requires solidarity. There is little of that in the skilled job market.

As for the ADA and the AMA, please! You want to compare trade associations to unions? Yes, they engage in advocacy, but pay is purely set at whatever pay rate the practitioner can get the market to bear. Membership in trade associations is OPTIONAL.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama.shtml
Since 1847 the American Medical Association (AMA) has had one mission: to promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health.

On a side note to all this, I am actually a member of a union that acts more like a trade association. I don't have a collective bargaining agreement, nor do I want one! The union advocates on our behalf mostly on quality of life issues, which is fine with me.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Or just be like Germany.

There's a reason the Germans almost succeeded in world domination. They have an incredible pride in themselves and what they create. And while we may not judge everything they make as "the best" on a world scale, you won't find stores riddled with imports from China lining the shelves there.


Is this some sort of joke? German store shelves have just as many Chinese products on them as our stores do, if not more. I have traveled extensively in Germany and have seen it with my own eyes. The importing relationships between China and the EU are similar to those with the US.

Quote:
I think it may come as a surprise to many, but outsourcing production, R&D and whatever else increases profits to 3rd world nations is not an entirely global phenomena.


Yes.

Yes, it is.

Germany is a net exporter of industrial finished products, but that being said, there's plenty of Chinese trinkets floating around there.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't know want point you are trying to make but the health professions' pay and many others are not really marketed based because of insurance or other indirect payer schemes. Say what you want but the ADA and AMA are the ultimate unions. They completely control supply and demand of workers in so many ways and at some many levels.

Labor supply and demand does not apply when there is offshoring and bringing in foreign workers.

Anyway I defer to Overk1lls posts. It is more inline with what I was really talking about and I agree with it completely.

 

[Autobahn88]

I would also like to point out that Unions are well represented in Germany in many professions. Blaming Unions for our demise is both false and unfair. Blame the fat cats on wall street and banks.

 

[Spazdog]

What works in Germany will not work in the US. They are largely an ethnically homogenous society.

Just ask any Turkish immigrant there. You could be a 3rd generation German Turk and speak perfect German and still not get a job that you are qualified for.

So who gets excluded here?

 

[grampi]

All this outsourcing comes down to one thing; greed. Nothing more, nothing less. Once businesses got a taste of the kind of profit margins they can have when they have their products made by slave laborists, they were bitten by the greed bug, so now they all do it. Ceo's and other corporate execs are no longer happy with making reasonable (though still high compared to what middle class employees earn) slaries, they now think they all have to make as much as oil company execs make. $10 million a year is no longer enough for them, they have to make $100 million a year. They're always giving the sorry excuse that they can't afford to pay their employees decent wages and provide benfits as that would force them to go under, when the reality is, they just don't want to do it because it cuts into their insane profits.

 

[mechanicx]

The main thing is that without manufacturing and producing your own goods there won't be as many or as well paying jobs at all levels and everybody gets excluded. Hiring practices is a separate issue and any qualified citizen should have equal opportunity. Those principles would work here, in Germany or anywhere.