VW/Audi oil spec question - does 504 replace 502?

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Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
But this does NOT imply that the 504 oils are or will be worse than any early 502 spec oils, when used with the USA OCI!


Again, look at my data. Our 08 rabbit, per the OM, is specced to do 10k mile OCIs. 504 has provided good wear rates in UOA at 5k miles, but the TBN is depleted fully. A 504 oil will NOT be suitable for 10k mile OCIs at this time, given fuel quality. Period.

It isnt a matter of if 504 is better/worse than 502. Ill bet that in terms of wear control and other things, that 504 is better than 502. But unless you want to take your chances when TBN crosses below 1 at 5k miles, be my guest. Up until then 504 performs admirably.

It is no different than BMW LL-04. It is OK for gassers in Europe. It is OK for diesels there and here. It is NOT OK for gassers in the USA. Will it perform admirably up to a point? Im sure. Doesnt make it the right oil.
 
Interesting.....I have not seen your data, or your comparison between a 502 and a 504 oil driven in similar conditions over similar distances.

I will be doing this with the 504 oil in my S4, now that I will have 4 sequential UOA on the 502 Castrol, for a direct comparison of wear metals and TBN.

I will draw my own conclusions from that analysis, and be sure to call Audi back if there is any indication that the 504 oil is depleted within the standard 10K miles. I will then weigh up the benefits of reduced wear (if shown) against OCI and draw up my plan for oil selection and OCI from that.

I'll see if I can find you data and comparisons. Thanks!
 
JHZR2

What were the conditions that you ran in, for TBN depletion in 5K miles?
Short, city trips or long/highway miles?
Winter or summer?
Style of driving?

I ask because I believe that many folks have an expectation of 10K OCI when they should be running the severe service, shorter OCIs...perhaps 5K OCI in your case?

Also, did you see a linear or regressive depletion to the TBN over time, or did you do a VOA and then a final UOA only? What were the two TBN numbers?

I found that the TBN depleted fast from the fresh fill until the first UOA, then the depletion slowed quite a bit. If you would have had to add oil after 5K miles, you would also be replenishing some additive, as I encountered in my current 10K series of UOA.

Basically, it sounds as if though if you were running the 5K OCI for severe service (short runs?), you would have the best of both worlds....better economy, low wear, low smog impacts, low rust, etc, etc.

But I understand if you have got great 10K UOA on some other 502 spec oil, why you would prefer to run the longer OCI as a viable alternative...
 
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Baldy, you're going 10k to find the best oil, when you can just go 5k with known good oils and guarantee a good result. Why potentially harm the engine as a tester?
 
I would at least do a 5K UOA to verify the oil has life left in it.
Please don't hurt the S4 :)

robert

(I'm a bit of a hypocrite saying this, I went 10K in my Toyota on the first run of SSO, but that isn't an S4, either...)
 
Consider this. We are all just second guessing the truth. The first fact is that Audi does not cater for enthusiasts unlike BMW and Mercedes who have very clear oil spec guidelines.
The second thing is that Audi VW specifies VW 502 oils in all their North American cars as of the new 2011 models. This is clearly stated in their owner's manuals and in a WARNING STICKER in the engine bay. This includes the V10 engines.
The third thing to consider is that this decision was made by someone who has all the information that we are just dreaming to access.
The fourth fact is that Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini ( owned by Audi and running the Audi V10 in its highest state of tune) , all makers of high performance gasoline engines, run oil specs that are similar to VW 502 specs.
VW 504/507, BMW LL04, MB 225.51 may well be highly advanced oils but , like everything, a compromise.
 
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Consider this. We are all just second guessing the truth. The first fact is that Audi does not cater for enthusiasts unlike BMW and Mercedes who have very clear oil spec guidelines.
The second thing is that Audi VW specifies VW 502 oils in all their North American cars as of the new 2011 models. This is clearly stated in their owner's manuals and in a WARNING STICKER in the engine bay. This includes the V10 engines.
The third thing to consider is that this decision was made by someone who has all the information that we are just dreaming to access.
The fourth fact is that Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini ( owned by Audi and running the Audi V10 in its highest state of tune) , all makers of high performance gasoline engines, run oil specs that are similar to VW 502 specs.
VW 504/507, BMW LL04, MB 225.51 may well be highly advanced oils but , like everything, a compromise.


The facts are also that:

1. Audi of America confirmed the suitability of 504 oil in my Audi S4 in the USA in a very specific discussion on this topic.
2. There is no TSB that I can find anywhere, that suggests that 504 oil is not suitable for use in gasoline engines in the USA. Nothing. Anywhere. And not from Audi when you ask them specifically.

I wasn't aware of the 502 ONLY warning on the 2011 cars. I will investigate further. Thanks!
 
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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Baldy, you're going 10k to find the best oil, when you can just go 5k with known good oils and guarantee a good result. Why potentially harm the engine as a tester?


10K is the standard Audi OCI. I am using an AUDI RECOMMENDED oil...any 504 oil is specifically recommended by Audi to me in my call with them.
I will be taking multiple UOA to confirm the suitability (or otherwise) of the 504 oil in my S4.

Anyone care to bet against my expectation that the 504 oil will work just as well, or better than the 502 oil? :)
 
The real question is why Audi is not specifying 504 oils for the US market. It also very specifically calls for 5w-40 oil.
So : different viscosities and different oil specs in the USA vs Europe. Why ?
( 504/507 can only be 5W-30, 502 may be 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40).
 
And of course, to complicate matters further, my Audi S4 Owner Manual specifies only API SJ or Acea A3/A4 oil...and does not mention VW 502 anywhere!
 
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
And of course, to complicate matters further, my Audi S4 Owner Manual specifies only API SJ or Acea A3/A4 oil...and does not mention VW 502 anywhere!


They started printing that requirement after the whole sludge fiasco with the longitudinal 1.8T's.

Interesting enough in my old 02 Golf manual, it did mentioned VW502.00. However, it worded in such that you can use VW502 or API SJ or ACEA A3/A4

in the TDI's case, VW505.00 or API CF-4/CG-4 or ACEA B3/B4 --- a lot of us, just use synthetic HDEO, which just outperforms VW505.00 (and VW502.00)
 
a lot of us, just use synthetic HDEO, which just outperforms VW505.00 (and VW502.00) [/quote]

Can you give some examples ?
 
outperforms VW505.00 (and VW502.00) [/quote]

How does an oil "outperform" a specification?
By definition it must first be approved for that specification and then pass a more stringent specification. For example VW 502 + BMW LL098 vs VW 502 + BMW LL01.
 
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Quote:
a lot of us, just use synthetic HDEO, which just outperforms VW505.00 (and VW502.00)


Can you give some examples ?

I think what he means is that some API-rated synthetics, like Mobil Delvac 5w40, performed better in those TDI engines than the Castrol Syntec 5w40 which carried a VAG 505.00 rating. There were huge numbers of used-oil tests performed on those oils.

Even moderately-priced HDEO like Shell Rotella 5w40 worked as well or better than the VAG-rated 5w40.

When the PD TDI engines came out in the 2004 model year, owners were warned of the catastrophic consequences if they failed to use a VAG 505.01-rated oil. Then these consequences began to happen even when the VAG 505.01 oils were used, and folks started using Mobil Delvac and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck and other API CI-4 and CJ-4 rated oils.... and those worked just as well if not better.

Many of the 2009 and 2010 TDI engines are still under warranty, so we are not advising anyone to deviate from what's in the owners' manual.
 
I thought the 504 spec oils typically had lower TBNs? When I compared Motul Specific 502/505 to the Specific 504/507, the TBN was about 30% less.

Are the newer motors producing fewer acids?
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
I thought the 504 spec oils typically had lower TBNs? When I compared Motul Specific 502/505 to the Specific 504/507, the TBN was about 30% less.

Are the newer motors producing fewer acids?


I believe the 504 oil spec results in lower TBN, but that does not equate to a proportional reduction in the ability of that oil to counter the acidity effects of the same motor under similar conditions that a 502 spec oil with higher TBN provides. I've seen oils with very high TBN that show fairly significant consumption of TBN in comparison to other oils with a lower virgin TBN.
 
So these are superoils with an Achilles' heel.
Their low ash / high non-metallic additive content explain both the low TBN and somewhat anemic VOA results.
 
Originally Posted By: felixthecat

Read this document carefully :

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Files/Delvc_PC-10_FAQs.pdf

..in some applicatons....TBN may be the limiting factor factor in the ability to extend oil drain intervals


Great link, thanks. The overwhelming message I took from that article was that the new diesel oils must have less metal-based anti-wear and detergent additives, and offset this by new, non metallic anti-wear and detergent additives which result in the nominal TBN number reduction (because TBN is related to the METAL based additives ONLY, so the TBN number no longer represents the overall anti-wear/detergent package in the oil), while the new formulation provides similar protection against acidity, and thus while the virgin TBN analysis will show a lower number, it does not represent the full (non-metals) package and thus the TBN depletion rate is LOWER than the older,metal-based additive oils.

This is exactly in line with my earlier comment above...where an oil with higher virgin TBN numbers show greater rates of TBN depletion than the newer spec oils with lower virgin TBN numbers.

Whether the lower rate of TBN depletion fully offsets the lower starting TBN number or rather.....whether the new oil's ability to counter the growing acidity levels is as effective as the older additive packages, remains to be seen....but certainly Mobil seems to indicate that the new diesel spec oils comfortably meet the manufacturer's OCI for both the newer diesel motors and the older diesel motors without particulate filters, etc.

I just wish that there was a similar confirmation of the suitability of the newer spec usage in the USA for the gasoline engines (to further validate what Audi tells me)
 
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