41TE Transmission Rebuild

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dont cross the line pal.,you know nothing of me or my back round yet you make comments like "Chryslers issues with transmissions are very deserved, but blanket statements are only made by the people ignorant of the facts.And what facts might I be ignorant about? It sure seem`s very cut and dry to me.They build low quality transmissions PERIOD.
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
we don't have to do anything to destroy your credibility, you seem to take care of that yourself.

I am a moderator on a forum with THOUSANDS of LX/LC platform owners since 2005. The data I provide is not applicable to the "wrong wheel drive" platforms you claim familiarity with by reason of salesman's quotes!

We all know that a salesman is the very best information provider.

Chryslers issues with transmissions are very deserved, but blanket statements are only made by the people ignorant of the facts. Torque management is an integral part of the software used to control the driveline in almost any car on the road with an automatic trans. Trucks, too. We use tuners to reprogram the PCM's in our cars, removing most TM. The difference is dramatic.

And it is a simple, easily verifiable fact that Chrysler now makes all the hi po LX/LC platform cars with a Getrag 226 mm ring gear 3rd member with clutch type LSD and larger halfshafts with additional splines, replacing the 215mm rear.

To date, based on THOUSANDS of actual LX/LC owners inputs, I know of three cars that have had issues with halfshafts breaking on street tires. All have been repaired under warranty. Mine have about 36 full tilt drag passes on them as well as 50k of "spirited" driving at track events all over the country. Never a peep.

I know of a few more that have broken under a full tilt drag pass on drag radials. This will happen to many cars with any real HP, as it's often traction that kills parts. Spinning is safety at the strip.

And you may wish to note that the exact same trans as in my car was standard equipment on the last generation E55 with mechanical supercharging. Also used in their twin turbo SL65 monster! It is a fantastic unit that can tolerate well over 500 RWHP in our stock form, and needs only simple valve body modifications to go to extreme HP levels.

An excellent ex-Mercedes driveline engineer for you to contact runs Paramount Performance Products. We call him Builder Bill. He can give you FACTUAL information on these cars.


Here your talking about Mercedes-Benz engineering,not Chrysler`s,whats wrong with you any way? My wife and I have owned Mercedes-Benz for year`s,she still has one.You dont need to explain their engineering to me,I know it`s top notch.
 
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
I did some research myself,and found what is called; "shift shock reduction" However it doesnt state if all manufacture`s do it or not.I understand what your referring to here,but I can not tell if all the companies do this or not.I have not experienced this in my vehicle as of now.I am not a wide open throttle driver,unless i`m driving a manual transmission.



I don't have any links on how widely torque management is applied across the industry, but its wide. Its such an accepted method these days that no one makes much of a big deal about it until tuners try disabling it to see if it improves their 1/4 mile times (which occasionally has the opposite effect since as you decrease TMM you potentially increase "bind up" between gears which wastes power- modern transmissions don't generally have sprag clutches anymore which was the old-school way to prevent bind-up).

I first started reading about it in 1993. When BMW began using electronic throttle later in the 1990s, I remember an article about how much easier and more effective it made implementing TMM. After that, I started noticing it on almost all rental cars I've had ranging from Corollas to Buicks to 300s. Not a month ago I happened to notice it on a Ford Edge rental.

If you can find me a manufacturer who doesn't implement it after all these years, please do so and I'll be EXTREMELY surprised. As I've said, it is an elegant way of getting rid of wasted energy and reducing wear that is totally unnecessary while at the same time improving NVH. Its not often that one technology does so many GOOD things.

The easiest way to detect it is not by feel, but by sound. It feels just like an exceptionally smooth shift- frankly I think its 90% of the reason that modern cars shift so smoothly. I personally cannot hear it most of the time in cars with very quiet exhaust systems, but always can hear it in cars with a little throatier exhaust. I guess just because of their generally raspy exhaust note I find it easier to detect with V6 engines than with v8s or I4s. It sounds just like lifting completely off the throttle for a half second or less. Its also most apparent (to me, anyway) it middling throttle openings. At very mild throttle, the change in sound is too subtle. At wide-open throttle, it happens lightning fast and is easy to miss over other sounds.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: lexus114
I did some research myself,and found what is called; "shift shock reduction" However it doesnt state if all manufacture`s do it or not.I understand what your referring to here,but I can not tell if all the companies do this or not.I have not experienced this in my vehicle as of now.I am not a wide open throttle driver,unless i`m driving a manual transmission.



I don't have any links on how widely torque management is applied across the industry, but its wide. Its such an accepted method these days that no one makes much of a big deal about it until tuners try disabling it to see if it improves their 1/4 mile times (which occasionally has the opposite effect since as you decrease TMM you potentially increase "bind up" between gears which wastes power- modern transmissions don't generally have sprag clutches anymore which was the old-school way to prevent bind-up).

I first started reading about it in 1993. When BMW began using electronic throttle later in the 1990s, I remember an article about how much easier and more effective it made implementing TMM. After that, I started noticing it on almost all rental cars I've had ranging from Corollas to Buicks to 300s. Not a month ago I happened to notice it on a Ford Edge rental.

If you can find me a manufacturer who doesn't implement it after all these years, please do so and I'll be EXTREMELY surprised. As I've said, it is an elegant way of getting rid of wasted energy and reducing wear that is totally unnecessary while at the same time improving NVH. Its not often that one technology does so many GOOD things.

The easiest way to detect it is not by feel, but by sound. It feels just like an exceptionally smooth shift- frankly I think its 90% of the reason that modern cars shift so smoothly. I personally cannot hear it most of the time in cars with very quiet exhaust systems, but always can hear it in cars with a little throatier exhaust. I guess just because of their generally raspy exhaust note I find it easier to detect with V6 engines than with v8s or I4s. It sounds just like lifting completely off the throttle for a half second or less. Its also most apparent (to me, anyway) it middling throttle openings. At very mild throttle, the change in sound is too subtle. At wide-open throttle, it happens lightning fast and is easy to miss over other sounds.


Sounds like you were right about this Magnum,And sir to you I apologize.After our discussion,I did some research on the subject (as you saw above) and it does appear like a large application.
 
Originally Posted By: lexus114


Sounds like you were right about this Magnum,And sir to you I apologize.After our discussion,I did some research on the subject (as you saw above) and it does appear like a large application.


Thanks for that. I'm sorry we got crosswise (twice, now). I really don't mean to be antagonistic. The thing about forums is that since you can't hear tone of voice, the words on the page can seem angry when they're not. I think I have a tendency to write forum posts kinda like I do Powerpoint bullet presentations- kinda dry.
 
Originally Posted By: tomcat27
Can I interrupt the debate for some techie questions?
dont they use the 41TE in the minivan also? I would suspect its really stressed in that duty.

anyway, thanks for the pix. where'd you learn how to do tranny builds? is it practical for an average car nut to try one? I've rebuilt small engines, replaced many clutches in cars/trucks, an trained in OBD 1 & 2 FI systems - and I am curious about autos - although the closest I have gotten in replacing the solenoid pack and valve body in my LH. can I learn on a 604? special tools required? expensive? is it worth it? and how to learn?


yeah the 41TE and its variants are found in alot of chrysler vehicals. Our 97 caravan also has a 41TE

the A604 (IIRC) is the predecessor to the 41TE We have a 90 carvan with 285,000 on it and it has that trans. That trans died at around 250,000. I'm convinced pulling a 16 foot flat bed with it is what killed the trans. lol.... my dad rebuilt it, then it blew a head gasket, got put on the back burners and the rest is history.

I'm self taught and learn from my dad. I visited a UTI campus and they used the A604 to train their trans techs and say it is one of the simpler ones... I sure would hate to see a complicated one then!!

I didn't help when he rebuilt the trans in the 90, so this is my first one and was doing it with his guidance. He hasn't had any "transmission" training or anything... he is an industrial mechanic and machinist with an electrical engineering degree. He went straight from the Chrysler service manual, which are very good BTW. And that's what I plan to do.

Is it practical? That depends I guess. I'm doing it mostly because I want to and it wouldn't get done otherwise since it would cost to much to have someone else do it.

The cost of the rebuild when DIY is cheap compared to buying one rebuilt or having it done. Of course it is only because of your free labor, like with all other things. I'm thinking we can rebuild this for about $500 or less. We are not sure yet because it depends on what needs replaced besides the normal wear out items.

We already have all tools. so if you have to get tools that also increases cost. There are some special tools required.

If you have the money its most likely worth it to buy a rebuilt saves tons of time and the learning curve. Otherwise when money is tight and/or you want the experience you DIY. Also when DIY you are the quality control. So assuming your doing it right, it should be the same or better than rebuilt. Alot of horror stories about rebuilts out there.
 
Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to finish this project in a timely manner. I have to leave Saturday for a new job that will put me on the road until December. Not ideal, but a job is a job.

Weeks ago when I started this project I was hoping I could finish before I left, but other things got in the way.

Either my dad will finish it, or I will when I get back.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: lexus114


Sounds like you were right about this Magnum,And sir to you I apologize.After our discussion,I did some research on the subject (as you saw above) and it does appear like a large application.


Thanks for that. I'm sorry we got crosswise (twice, now). I really don't mean to be antagonistic. The thing about forums is that since you can't hear tone of voice, the words on the page can seem angry when they're not. I think I have a tendency to write forum posts kinda like I do Powerpoint bullet presentations- kinda dry.




No harm done.....
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Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to finish this project in a timely manner. I have to leave Saturday for a new job that will put me on the road until December. Not ideal, but a job is a job.

Weeks ago when I started this project I was hoping I could finish before I left, but other things got in the way.

Either my dad will finish it, or I will when I get back.


Sorry to hear that Texan,hope things go well for you and you can finish up when you come back home.
 
Originally Posted By: tomcat27
Can I interrupt the debate for some techie questions?
dont they use the 41TE in the minivan also? I would suspect its really stressed in that duty.


Yes, its stressed in that application and its used in virtually every front-drive Chrysler product that has a TRANSVERSE (sideways) engine since 1989 (smaller v6 engines and inline 4s got the 3-speed well into the mid 90s- it was a reliable unit). The 41TE is pretty much solely responsible for Chrysler's bad transmission reputation, and of that its mostly due to the overloaded 41TEs in minivans. Before the 41TE, Chrysler had the rep for the some of the best automatics in the business and there's never been any real problem with the other transmissions (rear-drive in trucks in SUVs or the 42LE used in longitudinal-engine FWDs like the LH cars. The 545RFE now used in the trucks and larger Jeeps has a very good track record.) But every time someone had a problem with a truck transmission in the 90s, because the 41TE had such a bad rap it would get blamed on "lousy Chrysler transmissions" too. The 41TE was originally called the A604- there's no real difference except for the gradual and continual upgrades it got.

Quote:
where'd you learn how to do tranny builds? is it practical for an average car nut to try one? I've rebuilt small engines, replaced many clutches in cars/trucks


I'm self-taught from reading and diving in. Basically if you can rebuild a small engine, a transmission doable if you just set aside your fear of the different. I consider overhauling and automatic FAR easier than replacing a clutch on a manual, let alone rebuilding an engine, from the amount of actual physical work it takes. The only special tools required are a GOOD set of snap-ring pliers (interior and exterior), a good set of feeler gauges, patience, and a CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN work area. Dirt kills automatics. The patience is required to use the feeler gauges to set clearances very carefully. I've been able to cobble together all the other "tools" needed- like using a 4x4, threaded rods, and nuts to pull the pump out of the bellhousing, and a large assortment of C-clamps to compress clutch pack springs.

My biggest problem on the ones I've rebuilt is acquiring oddball little parts. Weekend hobbyist mechanics like me can order "rebuild kits" that have all the friction materials, and 90% of what you need easy enough, but it can be a little tricky to get the things that aren't included in the kits if you happen to need them- waverings/snaprings of different thicknesses to set clutch pack clearances, thrust washers of different thicnkeses to set input shaft end-play, etc. But its doable.
 
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to finish this project in a timely manner. I have to leave Saturday for a new job that will put me on the road until December. Not ideal, but a job is a job.

Weeks ago when I started this project I was hoping I could finish before I left, but other things got in the way.

Either my dad will finish it, or I will when I get back.

Although I will miss the updates, I'm thrilled for you. A job! Income!
 
Originally Posted By: lexus114
dont cross the line pal.,you know nothing of me or my back round yet you make comments like "Chryslers issues with transmissions are very deserved, but blanket statements are only made by the people ignorant of the facts.And what facts might I be ignorant about? It sure seem`s very cut and dry to me.They build low quality transmissions PERIOD.


That's priceless.

First you scold me about blanket statements.

Then you make one!

Like I said earlier, (I'll boil it down for ya) You don't know your [censored] from a hole in the ground.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: lexus114
dont cross the line pal.,you know nothing of me or my back round yet you make comments like "Chryslers issues with transmissions are very deserved, but blanket statements are only made by the people ignorant of the facts.And what facts might I be ignorant about? It sure seem`s very cut and dry to me.They build low quality transmissions PERIOD.


That's priceless.

First you scold me about blanket statements.

Then you make one!

Like I said earlier, (I'll boil it down for ya) You don't know your [censored] from a hole in the ground.


Aw go lay down!!
smirk2.gif
I`m tired of this noise coming from you,that`s all it is noise! I`m talking about Chrysler transmission`s and your trying to show off the German made ones in this jeep of your`s.Better luck making a fool out of some one next time their Bud.Do us all a favor,keep your noise down in Florida.

I`m through going back and fourth with you now,It was entertaining at first,but i`m bored with this now.I`m moving on to constructive threads on here.If you have any more to say,talk to the proverbial hand!
 
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WAAAH, took your toys and went home? Who can I play with now?

I actually admire the way you can ignore the facts. This would keep one happy, eh? At least a simple one. The line about "I'm done arguing with you" is one of the funniest ones I've ever heard. There was no argument here. Just facts.

Ooooh, I guess you win. Darn.

At least I got ya to show off for us. Too bad you can't even figure out my car! Hint: not a Jeep. But you do drive a Lexus.

We are all wiser now (except you)!
 
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I'm curious about the TM in my vehicle, a '93 gmc pickup w/4.3 engine and a automatic trans.

I do notice that when its accelerating, but has not jumped into high gear, a little feathering off on the throttle will trigger the tranny to jump into gear.

Is that a bit of a manual way to intitiate torque management or am I simply doing something else?
I was told in the past that the engine rpm's are actually higher when you take off the throttle then when the engine is under power. For a moment, the engine free wheels and there is a slight bump of rpm's.

In defense of the quality complaint, I must say that I've seen some questionable quality parts get shipped by suppliers.
Shafts that were not heat treated correctly and were softer than spec or parts made of lower carbon ( softer ) steels than required.
Why? The auto companies are so tight on costs that they bk the suppliers. Suppliers then cut some corners rather than eat a wrong batch of parts. So its possible, some of those pictured parts were not properly made and hardened.
 
Originally Posted By: hypervish
The 41TE was a true failure in Chrysler's part.


The early 604's were since the technology was new using soilenoids to control the shifting. THe issue on them was they required very tight tolerances.

The newer units 2000 and up are very dependable, I know a couple mopar techs and asked them what they see, their respones was they havent scene a low milage unit in the shop in years, ie ones with under 150-200K. They do wear out you know, like any other trans.

I suspect many of the early failures were due to people running incorrect fluid and in some case they simply went to unscrupulous shops who could have corrected the issue by replacing a speed sensor and instead sold them
a rebuilt. I know a few people on various boards who had them go into limp mode and shops wanted to rebuild the trans, then they say no way, pop a new pair of I/O speed sensors in and no more problem. My brother had a 93 Intrepid with the 42LE, same trans basically but for the LH cars.
Went over 250K and never a problem. Did 50K pan/filter changes and the thing ran fine when sold.

On the PT board there are a few guys running em, they generally hold up to about 300 WHP before they cant hack it. The overdrive by the way is the weak link in em so most will use the auto stick feature and not boost in 4th. At the track they simply use the auto stick.

I believe they are phasing them out and going to a 6spd auto and in another year or so some dry dual clutch auto. They are as antique though as the [censored] shifting 4 spd auto in my MIL's 09 Corrolla.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
... The 41TE is pretty much solely responsible for Chrysler's bad transmission reputation, and of that its mostly due to the overloaded 41TEs in minivans. Before the 41TE, Chrysler had the rep for the some of the best automatics in the business and there's never been any real problem with the other transmissions (rear-drive in trucks in SUVs or the 42LE used in longitudinal-engine FWDs like the LH cars.


FWIW, I have an original 2001 42LE in my Intrepid with 275K miles. It does the occasional 'bump-shift' during down shifts but it's otherwise been a reliable piece.

Further FWIW, I used to be a regular on this board but I got tired of a few posters with - in my opinion - mental health issues who seem to delight in endless arguing, loud-mouthing from a keyboard and generally just infecting otherwise good threads. So I stopped in today for the first time in 6 or 8 months and found a thread that interested me (this one) only to find what could have been a perfectly good thread that has been polluted by a mouth-piece who incessantly argues/accuses/agitates. It must the strain of the economy or housing market in Pennsylvania.

I'm outta here again for 6 months or a year. There are saner and more productive places to spend time.
 
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