Ford 302 Lubrication-related failure

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Truckedup
Sorry for all the stupid questions........Your engine damage is different from what I've seen from oil starvation.The pump sucks air at full throttle from cornering G loads or a bad pump pick up and the crank bearings wipe out instantly.Maybe even spun bearings.Your bearings appear no where near that.I'm just surprized that the bearings kinda survive and the roller cam ,that should tolerate a "pressurized" oil interuption, has a drastic failure.
Then again,I've learned something new.


This was probably a "between shift" RPM spike which meant the engine had no load on it. The only part that is constantly loaded in this case is the valvetrain.

The pump didn't "suck air" per se, rather it lacked the ability to pump OIL due to cavitation.

Have your failures been observed on SBC's by chance? I ask because the Ford Windsor engines and the GM Small Block oil different components first. The GM Small Block IIRC oils the cam first, whilst the Ford Windsor engine oils the crank first. So the first thing to starve for oil with an SBC is going to be the crank and rods. The first thing to starve for oil in an SBF is going to be the valvetrain.

Here's a GM Smallblock oil system diagram:

Here's a Ford Smallblock oil system diagram:

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Oil pickups and pumps change and if the engine has been rebuilt, you should go with what the builder recommends. If it is an original build and stock then you should follow Ford recommendations.

I thought he already stated that it was not oil related.


What oil did the builder recommend? Seems the 50 wt didn't fare well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Oil pickups and pumps change and if the engine has been rebuilt, you should go with what the builder recommends. If it is an original build and stock then you should follow Ford recommendations.

I thought he already stated that it was not oil related.


To clarify on this: It had factory (READ: FORD) clearances for the bearings. There was nothing "builder specific" done to this engine other than a balance.

 

[Truckedup]

Quote:
Have your failures been observed on SBC's by chance?

Yeah,circle or road course track engines with wet sumps.The car spins out,all the oil piles up on one side of the pan,if the driver is into the throttle the bearings may wipe out.
A SBC can support over 500 HP at 7000 rpm with only 55 psi oil pressure.I've been told that Fords run very high oil pressure?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Truckedup
Quote:
Have your failures been observed on SBC's by chance?

Yeah,circle or road course track engines with wet sumps.The car spins out,all the oil piles up on one side of the pan,if the driver is into the throttle the bearings may wipe out.
A SBC can support over 500 HP at 7000 rpm with only 55 psi oil pressure.I've been told that Fords run very high oil pressure?


No, only the Modular engines, and the Cleveland ran high oil pressure. The Windsor stock pump has a 65lb relief.

A stock 302HO, with no internal mods running a supercharger can handle around 550RWHP at around 6,000RPM. That's roughly 640HP flywheel. A turbo-setup, which doesn't load the nose of the crank have been said to be good for 650HP at around the same RPM, or 750HP flywheel.

Of course those numbers are not set in stone. A bad tune will cause things to fail lower. A good friend of mine is making 534HP to the tires, spinning it to 6,400RPM. My 302 (in my sig, the Capri one) is cammed to spin to a max of 7,000RPM, is completely stock save the heads, cam and intake and should make roughly 425HP flywheel. Hopefully it will be on the rollers later this summer.

My cam grinder has spun them to 8K, but that's not something that is advisable for a stock block. 7K is pushing it due to the weight of the rotating assembly. HO engines prior to 1992 had TRW forged pistons (which are heavy) and forged rods. The rotating assembly is VERY strong. Stronger than the block they stuck it in.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


A stock 302HO, with no internal mods running a supercharger can handle around 550RWHP at around 6,000RPM. That's roughly 640HP flywheel. A turbo-setup, which doesn't load the nose of the crank have been said to be good for 650HP at around the same RPM, or 750HP flywheel.


So what you are saying is I should buy another mustang and a supercharger

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


A stock 302HO, with no internal mods running a supercharger can handle around 550RWHP at around 6,000RPM. That's roughly 640HP flywheel. A turbo-setup, which doesn't load the nose of the crank have been said to be good for 650HP at around the same RPM, or 750HP flywheel.


So what you are saying is I should buy another mustang and a supercharger

I LOVE Fox body Mustangs.

I'd post a few pics of my buddy's rides, but I don't have their permission to do so, so I'm not going to.

I will however, provide the details:

Car #1:
-1982 Capri RS
-Engine from a 1989 Mustang GT
-Stock 302 block, crank and rods
-DSS 0.030 over pistons with enlarged reliefs
-AFR 185 cylinder heads
-Crane Cams XE274HR camshaft
-Edelbrock Performer RPM intake (he now has a TFS-R that he bought from me, but no numbers with it on the car yet)
-Professional Products 70mm throttle body
-Crane Cams roller rockers
-Vortec S-Trim blower
-Built Ford C4 trans
-3.55 gears (he bought my 3.27's because he ran out of gear)

534RWHP @ 6,400RPM IIRC
Car has gone 10.3@124MPH IIRC


Car #2:
-1991 Mustang LX notch
-Stock 302
-Trick-Flow Twisted-Wedge heads
-Crane Gold rockers
-Crane XE264HR cam
-Professional Products Edelbrock Performer RPM clone intake
-FMS 65mm Throttle Body
-Vortec S-Trim blower
-Built Ford AOD trans w/3,500RPM stall

525RWHP@6,000RPM
Car has gone bottom 11's when it was still stick, not power shifted at 121Mph. No times with the AOD yet, but it should be bottom 10's.

He has SERIOUSLY been considering building a turbo setup, but so has the first guy. They've always had a friendly rivalry. The first guy also has an 11-second all-motor notch that used to be owned by an Engineer at Ford. It has a number of one-off parts on it. It has never seen rain. It is the cleanest Mustang I've ever seen.

The second guy drives his car on the street all the time. It has over 300,000Km on it. It used to be a nitrous car, then it became a blower car. Now it's a blower with auto car, and may eventually be a turbo car.

 

[KW]

No one will agree, but it looks like the valves floated enough to cause a lifter to jump out of the retainer. Once the lifter is out of the retainer it lost oil pressure, started grinding on the roller and sent flack through the motor which made everything go down hill fast. Looks like you shut it down pretty quickly.

HD40 and XW40's seem to he a happy medium for engine life and ET in the stuff I build around here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KW
No one will agree, but it looks like the valves floated enough to cause a lifter to jump out of the retainer. Once the lifter is out of the retainer it lost oil pressure, started grinding on the roller and sent flack through the motor which made everything go down hill fast. Looks like you shut it down pretty quickly.

HD40 and XW40's seem to he a happy medium for engine life and ET in the stuff I build around here.


Wasn't my engine. The car was purchased with the engine in this state, as stated in the OP.

ALL the lifter bores are scored from lack of lubrication, not just one.

The springs are very heavy and are spec'd for the cam up to 7,000RPM. It is VERY unlikely that valve float occurred naturally. Artificial valve float, due to bind in the bores is what caused the damaged to the lifters. The lack of lubrication leading up to this is evident with the scoring, not only in the lifter bores, but in the cylinders as well.

No where in the OP did I ASK what caused the failure. In fact, I STATED what caused the failure. I figured members would like to see what happened, since very few tear-down pictures get posted on here. Particularly ones of this nature.

 

[KW]

Wow you sure are full of yourself.

Flack in the oil from the damaged liter caused the scoring. Now you mention coil bind? Well then that's the problem that caused the cam/lifter failure isn't it... not the oil.

I was just trying to help buddy row, now I'm done with you.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KW
Wow you sure are full of yourself.

Flack in the oil from the damaged liter caused the scoring. Now you mention coil bind? Well then that's the problem that caused the cam/lifter failure isn't it... not the oil.

I was just trying to help buddy row, now I'm done with you.


I didn't say COIL bind, I said BIND, as in the lifter was BINDING in the lifter bores due to lack of lubrication.

I'm NOT full of myself. This was a failure that was discussed WITH the cam grinder who specializes in SBF's. Upon looking at the pictures and discussing what transpired, he agreed with the run-down as to what happened to cause this mess.

I hadn't asked for your help! We already knew what caused the failure. I posted the pictures for people to look at, since, as I said, this kind of thing doesn't get posted here often.

It was also CLEARLY stated that the oil DID NOT CAUSE THE FAILURE. The LACK of oil to the valvetrain did! Your inability to read what I clearly wrote is not my problem.


***********

Listen, I'm not trying to be rude or crass. But for those who actually DID read the original post, I would imagine it was pretty clear that it was provided as a STATEMENT. There were NO questions asked.

I had not made any kind of request for other people's theories. If you want to spin your own, that's fine. But neglecting half of the information I posted then going off half-cocked because what you stated had already clearly been covered is completely unnecessary.

 

[KW]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I hadn't asked for your help! We already knew what caused the failure. I posted the pictures for people to look at, since, as I said, this kind of thing doesn't get posted here often.

It was also CLEARLY stated that the oil DID NOT CAUSE THE FAILURE. The LACK of oil to the valvetrain did! Your inability to read what I clearly wrote is not my problem.


***********

Listen, I'm not trying to be rude or crass. But for those who actually DID read the original post, I would imagine it was pretty clear that it was provided as a STATEMENT. There were NO questions asked.

I had not made any kind of request for other people's theories. If you want to spin your own, that's fine. But neglecting half of the information I posted then going off half-cocked because what you stated had already clearly been covered is completely unnecessary.


Wow you are being VERY RUDE to me for some reason. I do know how to read, thank you for trying to imply that I cannot. Sorry if I may have hurt your feelings; I did not intend to do so. Like I said, I was tying to help, now you have made it very clear with your statements that you don't need or want anyway. That's cool I guess.

I will never attempt to assist you in anyway from this point on as you are very rude and think you have everything figured out. I still love you though, they world needs people like you, it helps the rest of us keep smiles on our faces.

Really who cares that you broke your little POS motor anyway...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KW
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I hadn't asked for your help! We already knew what caused the failure. I posted the pictures for people to look at, since, as I said, this kind of thing doesn't get posted here often.

It was also CLEARLY stated that the oil DID NOT CAUSE THE FAILURE. The LACK of oil to the valvetrain did! Your inability to read what I clearly wrote is not my problem.


***********

Listen, I'm not trying to be rude or crass. But for those who actually DID read the original post, I would imagine it was pretty clear that it was provided as a STATEMENT. There were NO questions asked.

I had not made any kind of request for other people's theories. If you want to spin your own, that's fine. But neglecting half of the information I posted then going off half-cocked because what you stated had already clearly been covered is completely unnecessary.


Wow you are being VERY RUDE to me for some reason. I do know how to read, thank you for trying to imply that I cannot. Sorry if I may have hurt your feelings; I did not intend to do so. Like I said, I was tying to help, now you have made it very clear with your statements that you don't need or want anyway. That's cool I guess.

I will never attempt to assist you in anyway from this point on as you are very rude and think you have everything figured out. I still love you though, they world needs people like you, it helps the rest of us keep smiles on our faces.

Really who cares that you broke your little POS motor anyway...


There are those reading skills again.

This was NOT my engine. This isn't even my car!

If you had read the first post, you would have known that. How am I supposed to respond to somebody who goes off half-cocked about something that was clearly covered in something that he's stating he read, but obviously didn't?

I'm not saying you can't read. I'm saying your reading skills appear to be not so great. This is purely based on your responses in this thread. It makes carrying on ANY sort of conversation with you exceedingly difficult. So either you are skimming and missing half of what is written, or?

You tell me.

 

[KW]

I don't care who's car it is. It is the car in your post isn't it...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KW
I don't care who's car it is. It is the car in your post isn't it...


But.....

Originally Posted By: KW

Really who cares that you broke your little POS motor anyway...


That is what you stated in your previous post.

This is not my engine. I made that incredibly clear in the FIRST POST that this was not my engine OR my car. That the engine was JUNK when the car was purchased!

 

[KW]

You are a good reader.

 

[Johnny]

It is a shame this whole topic as gone the way of the toilet. Started up great, turned out to be a turd. Flush it and lets move on.

 

[ekpolk]

Euthanasia isn't just for our sick, unsavable pups. Injection completed...