Toyota 4-cyl with head gasket problems - common

[Hokiefyd]

No, Cadillac does not recommend Heli-coils. In fact, they recommend AGAINST Heli-coils. Heli-coil is a brand, and their inserts are not long enough. The GM-backed repair is from Timesert:

http://www.timesert.com

And, if the 2AZ-FE engine uses the M11x1.5 bolts, then Timesert has a kit to replace those. Nobody should jump to the conclusion that the engine needs to be replaced because of a stripped thread. Parts are available to correct this.

And there should be no interaction between the dissimilar metals in this case unless the head gasket were already leaking. As ARCO pointed out, you must have the presence of coolant to make that reaction occur. Without coolant (if the head gasket is still good), then there should be no problem.

This issue is rather common. You can see that Timesert has kits for GM, Ford's modular motors, numerous Honda engine repair kits, and even some Harley Davidson and Volkswagen repair parts.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: pacem
This is becoming more common as the 4-cyl engines gets high in miles. Not sure what years are affected by apparently it's the 2AZFE engine.
This stuff is very scary and seems very expensive.

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/camry/148454-camry-with-stripped-head-bolts/

Quote:


I am a service center owner and technician of over 40 years in SC. Recently, a 2003 Camry LE w/ 70,000 miles came into my shop with a coolant leak. I consulted this forum and others to find proof of the same instance in the Toyota Camry. I write this in response to some posts I read on this site. This is to be informative for those in similar situations.

To do the exam, we pressurized the cooling system and put the car up on the lift. We immediately noticed coolant leaking from underneath the plastic INT intake Manifold in the rear of the engine. I also noticed a Large piece of foam rubber between the Intake Manifold and the Engine Block and Head. This was blocking our view of the leak. We could only see that the leak was behind the foam piece. The only option to discover the source of this leak was to remove the plastic intake manifold, which I did. After this was removed, it became obvious that coolant had been leaking a minor amount for quite some time due to build up between the cylinder head and block.

The only option left is to remove the head, which requires an exstensive disassembly (R and R cylinder head). After Loosening the bolts in sequence, I notice the head bolts in the back of the engine are loose. From my experience in the field, I can confidently conclude that this only means one of two things: The bolts were left loose at the factory, or the Bolts are stripped. ( I commonly have seen stripped bolts in the Aluminum Cadillac North Star Block discovered through leaking coolant.)

Next, I removed the head and sure enough, one bolt came out with aluminum in the thread...thus indicating a stripped bolt.

MY THEORY: The placement of the (insulation) foam rubber piece between the Intake Manifold and the engine block created an uneven dispersion of heat, creating "metal fatigue" in the aluminum block allowing the headbolt to strip.

If Toyota had out an Aluminum Manifold instead of Plastic, there would have been no need to insulate (w/ foam piece), thus eliminating the probem.

The only solution to this problem is to unforunately replace the engine. The cost to repair it otherwise would be substantial. This is an engine defect and we WILL be seeing more of this.



Ok this is Toyota bashing at it's best....look up a 2008 quote and post it like it's news. Really?

 

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"I've never had a head gasket issue with a GM car, but have seen plenty blown on Toy, Nissan and Mitsu."

Never seen an early 2000's GM v6? Those things leak coolant crazy!


But not usually from the headgasket.


In any case, cousin's point is quite ridiculous.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Ok this is Toyota bashing at it's best....look up a 2008 quote and post it like it's news. Really?

And how long ago was the Firestone deal with Ford?

I'm just sayin.....

 

[PT1]

TSB 01507, NHTSA #10021542, Dated April 6 2007.

Coolant Loss on 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines

The following information concerns the loss of coolant on some 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines. The location of this condition has been noted at the rear of the engine where the cylinder head bolts to the cylinder block.
It has been reported that stripped head bolt threads have been found on some of these engines during tear down. When the two rear head bolts lose their clamping ability they allow coolant to seep out at the rear of the cylinder head.

To repair this condition, engine builders report using thread repair tooling used for various GM engines. Specifically, Cadillac 4.6L engines use the same threaded head bolts (Figure 1). The head bolts for this Toyota engine may be reused if they are not damaged and meet the following length specification.

Using a vernier caliper, measure the length of the head bolts from the seat to the end.

Specified bolt length: 6.350˝ to 6.465˝ (161.3 mm to 164.2 mm). If the length is greater than the maximum, replace the bolt.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: opus1
Originally Posted By: PT1
Ok this is Toyota bashing at it's best....look up a 2008 quote and post it like it's news. Really?

And how long ago was the Firestone deal with Ford?

I'm just sayin.....

I don't understend what you are saying? I never started a post about the Firestone tire recall like it was news. Whoever posted in 2008 was too stoopid to look up the TSB published in 2007.

 

[Hokiefyd]

That TSB is rather vague. Are they advocating using the Timesert for the Northstar engine, or merely acknowledging that some engine buildings use it? I'm not sure what the recommended remedy from Toyota is in this case.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: Jason Adcock
That TSB is rather vague. Are they advocating using the Timesert for the Northstar engine, or merely acknowledging that some engine buildings use it? I'm not sure what the recommended remedy from Toyota is in this case.


From what I understand the timesert works better than helicoil. But I doubt that a NHTSA TSB is going to outline that. The Toyota internal memo most likely will. But this issue has long been resolved. Some believe it was a heat related problem others believe it was simply poor castings.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
"It's everywhere, check out toyotanation.com"

How on earth do you think I know where you stole the quote from? My username is the same everywhere, you'll find me those places as well.

The problem isn't really the coolant or the gasket. There have been engines helicoiled from the factory. So it's just a undersized thread surface on the bolt. Also, these bolts aren't torqued to spec, they're turned to spec like a sparkplug. IIRC 3/4 turn past seated. So, they could easily be overtorqued at the factory or some other point. But the helicoil from the factory, to me, says this is an issue they knew about and that it's not corrosion, it's design.

I certainly wouldn't get rid of a car over this, every car has issues. You'll pay more in the trade than the fix for this costs!


True: Timesert can fix it. Not that expensive either. If you find a shop that has done one then it might be even cheaper. But there was not enough of them to get past TSB. I think it is either an over torque at factory assembly or poor castings.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I don't understend what you are saying? I never started a post about the Firestone tire recall like it was news. Whoever posted in 2008 was too stoopid to look up the TSB published in 2007.
Never said you did, but your post implies that it's unreasonable to look back at bad history and yet there are countless posts by people here (not you, just had to say that now.

) that love to reach way back to all of the Big 3's failings, including the time someone's uncle Bob had a Vega that melted its aluminum engine 30 years ago and using that as justification for why GM should have been allowed to cease existance last year.

 

[PT1]

Oh...ok...but this issue has been resolved several years now and this thread has it described as something brand new and states there will be more and more of these problems which is not happening. The Firestone tire recall was a very long drawn out one because it took so long to show up and there were so many Ford explorers sold all over the world and it was primarily caused by the vehicle owners lack of participation. So comparing a huge recall with a TSB issue really doesn't make much sense.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
"I've never had a head gasket issue with a GM car, but have seen plenty blown on Toy, Nissan and Mitsu."

Never seen an early 2000's GM v6? Those things leak coolant crazy!


Not a head gasket

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"I've never had a head gasket issue with a GM car, but have seen plenty blown on Toy, Nissan and Mitsu."

Never seen an early 2000's GM v6? Those things leak coolant crazy!

But not usually from the headgasket.

In any case, cousin's point is quite ridiculous.

Why? Blown headgaskets aren't common on GM cars.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Why? Blown headgaskets aren't common on GM cars.

Very rare in fact. IM gaskets on just 1 or 2 engines. GM hasn't had gasket issues when you look at the millions of engines. They were sold a bill of good by a supplier with a "new gasket" technology which caused the dexCool scandal

 

[pacem]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I've never had a head gasket issue with a GM car, but have seen plenty blown on Toy, Nissan and Mitsu.


The other one is Subaru. Pity, as it's a fine car otherwise, but the 2.5L engine has been problematic since late 90's. Head gaskets. Replacement is SOP for these cars, phase I or II. Subaru never issued a recall, instead gives some kind of additive to the coolant. An aspirin for a brain tumor.

I had a very good luck with full size GM products, run forever.

 

[pacem]

Originally Posted By: PT1
True: Timesert can fix it. Not that expensive either. If you find a shop that has done one then it might be even cheaper. But there was not enough of them to get past TSB. I think it is either an over torque at factory assembly or poor castings.

Yes, it can fix it *if* you catch in time. And if you don't, it will destroy your engine. It's real easy not to notice how your car overheats until it's too late, when all the coolant is gone, either inside the engine or outside of it. Why even look at temperature if it has never gone beyond the normal range for 100K miles. I am pretty certain some members of my family, let's just say not BITOG candidates, would melt the engines and stop only when it 'goes no more'.

 

[pacem]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Ok this is Toyota bashing at it's best....look up a 2008 quote and post it like it's news. Really?

I am sure these issues are no longer relevant.

 

[ls1mike]

Hmm I wonder if a bigger headbolt on a bunch of the cars mentioned from the start would have made a difference? Say a 12mm nomial, more clamping force.

I will mention the turbo Dodge stuff I used to have, those were all torque to yeild. The 11 mm bolts were 45 45 65 ft/lbs. Then 1/4 turn, which works out to about 95 ft/lbs which is usually what everyone did when replacing a gasket, in addition to using the update one. The original 10mm were 25 25 45 1/4 turn if memory serves me correctly.

 

[Durango]

Originally Posted By: nthach
^FWIW, you could use Bar's Leak(tablet or liquid GINGER formula) or Subaru's coolant additive as a stop-gap measure.


nthach,

Thanks for the tip BUT I got rid of my old 89' Camry for a super nice 08' Impala SS!

My Camry was due for a major engine service and plus the radiator was falling apart so I figured it's better money spent buying a new car over getting the car back into servies. Your know what I mean. Here's a list of what I'd need to do:

1. New set of motor mounts
2. Complete engine tune/ 250K service
a. water pump
b. timing belt
c. valve adjustment-complete engine tune
3. possible new cat.
4. new radiator

Later,

Durango

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: pacem
Originally Posted By: PT1
True: Timesert can fix it. Not that expensive either. If you find a shop that has done one then it might be even cheaper. But there was not enough of them to get past TSB. I think it is either an over torque at factory assembly or poor castings.

Yes, it can fix it *if* you catch in time. And if you don't, it will destroy your engine. It's real easy not to notice how your car overheats until it's too late, when all the coolant is gone, either inside the engine or outside of it. Why even look at temperature if it has never gone beyond the normal range for 100K miles. I am pretty certain some members of my family, let's just say not BITOG candidates, would melt the engines and stop only when it 'goes no more'.


True, if my wife were driving one...the engine would be in a puddle of molten aluminum on the ground...then the CEL would be on.