ZDDP - Still the BEST anti-wear additive?
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ZDDP is cheap, but it does work better than anything to date according to most. I don't know of any high end racing oils that don't use high amounts of ZDDP. Motorcycle oils, Mobil 1 R, Synergyn, Redline, RP all use high amounts. Again though, not all engines need it due to the metallurgy being used and driving conditions. But like we saw with M1R, it's simply M1 + 70% more ZDDP for NASCAR.
Well I guess I have a cheap insurance policy if I spike my regular oil with a zddp additive.
I haven't heard of many racing cars that have catalytic converters, either. Do you see a pattern emerging here?
I have never had a converter failure ever from pluging up etc.... I have had some family member who had they new designed ceramic element converters that are merly plated with exotic metals that have had issues. In each case though the failure was a mechanical failure of the ceramic matrix not a chemical failure caused by additives.
I find it odd that the loudest voices in the ZDDP causes catalytic failure comes from GM. GM is well known to have consuption issues with most of their engines. TO add insult to injury they extend the OCI to far for the cheap volitile dino 5W30 they so often recomend. This just makes the consuption issue that much worse as you add fresh light bodied volitile hydrocarbons back as top off.
If your car does not consume oil and the oil is not volitile then how ZDDP a problem????
I am not saying that ZDDP is the best anti-wear additive going because I do not know this as a matter of fact. I do know though that it has a proven track record. I also know that we have not seen anyone truly put enough supplemental AW aditives in their to make up for all the ZDDP that is missing! No one want s to spend the money to put that much Boron,Antimony,Moly in the bottle. We also know from radio-isotpe testing that different materials in an engine have varying atraction/propensity for the various AW additives. some materials prefer ZDDP while others like boron or phos. calcium better.
If we were seeing oils with AW packages like 500ppm of Boron,250ppm of antimony,500ppm of moly,5000ppm of calcium then it might be a different story. Even then what wold 500ppm of ZDDP hurt?
I find it odd that the loudest voices in the ZDDP causes catalytic failure comes from GM. GM is well known to have consuption issues with most of their engines. TO add insult to injury they extend the OCI to far for the cheap volitile dino 5W30 they so often recomend. This just makes the consuption issue that much worse as you add fresh light bodied volitile hydrocarbons back as top off.
If your car does not consume oil and the oil is not volitile then how ZDDP a problem????
I am not saying that ZDDP is the best anti-wear additive going because I do not know this as a matter of fact. I do know though that it has a proven track record. I also know that we have not seen anyone truly put enough supplemental AW aditives in their to make up for all the ZDDP that is missing! No one want s to spend the money to put that much Boron,Antimony,Moly in the bottle. We also know from radio-isotpe testing that different materials in an engine have varying atraction/propensity for the various AW additives. some materials prefer ZDDP while others like boron or phos. calcium better.
If we were seeing oils with AW packages like 500ppm of Boron,250ppm of antimony,500ppm of moly,5000ppm of calcium then it might be a different story. Even then what wold 500ppm of ZDDP hurt?
I've started using oil treatments since the SM oils took hold. I don't like the rumors of cam wear with lower zinc.
Some catalytic converters are lasting hundreds of thousands of miles on oils with zinc.
Rumors, a> will always be with us, and, b> carry the flawed logic of comparing apples to oranges in this particular case. There's no direct correlation since Sequence IIIG was designed to stress candidate motor oils MORE than Sequence IIIF. It stands to reason the measurable wear would be higher under Sequence IIIG. The real question is how the obsolete SL/GF-3 motor oils would've fared under the grueling IIIG tests.
What is a good zddp addative that can be found at Auto Zone or the like?
With modern engine designs and alternative additives, the need for ZDDP is less. What was great about ZDDP was that is was CHEAP and it worked very well. So if it's cheaper, you could potentially put the $$ into other additives etc. SM oils have gone up in price and a lot of it is probably from more expensive alternative additives. Molekule and bruce could give you the best answer here.
For extreme racing conditions, I'd rather have a lot of ZDDP and that is what is found in most racing oils. In a good engine, like a Toyota/Honda, you don't need all that much and I think the oil analysis results on here show that quite well.
For extreme racing conditions, I'd rather have a lot of ZDDP and that is what is found in most racing oils. In a good engine, like a Toyota/Honda, you don't need all that much and I think the oil analysis results on here show that quite well.
Got a Big Lots near you? Check out this stuff.
Or Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment (about 1700 ppm zddp and a lot of other nice goodies) should be at AutoZone and Pep Boys.
Well...remember you only need a certain amount of ZDDP for it to be effective. And it's depletion is the main concern. Engines built with roller lifters/rockers, crankshaft driven trochoid oil pumps, OHCs, camshaft belts, etc, just won't deplete the ZDDP as quickly. And as Ray H mentioned, if there was any concern with SM formulated oils, it would show up in the Sequence IIIG engine test.
JohnBrowning posted: "GM is well known to have consuption issues with most of their engines." Well we are just going to have to disagree on that statement. Personally I see a lot more blue smoke coming fron imports and "domestics" with import powertrains than I see from GM products. Lots of late model Camrys and Siennas seem to have the blue haze following them. I'll bet they won't pass emissions either. And I don't believe any amount of ZDDP or other anti wear agent can make up for poor engineering. Rickey.
"Well...remember you only need a certain amount of ZDDP for it to be effective. If there was any concern with SM formulated oils, it would show up in the Sequence IIIG engine test."
SAE tests show that there is no benefit to levels over 0.03. Higher levels allow you to use it longer but do not by itself decrease wear.
aehaas
SAE tests show that there is no benefit to levels over 0.03. Higher levels allow you to use it longer but do not by itself decrease wear.
aehaas
From what I can see they load the dyno more from 100 hp to 125 hp and changing test time from 80 to 100 hours as test parameter changes. Seems like that would have more of an impact on the varnish, bearings, cylinder wall. rings, and piston wear than on valve train wear. Yes its much more stringent.... But it still does not account for the 20 μm maximum allowed cam and lifter wear vs 60 μm maximum allowed wear increase in cam and lifter wear for only 25% more run time.
If your comparing the test limits between the IIIF and IIIG tests, be aware that the camshaft components are different. In the IIIG tests, very good oils are generating results near 40 microns of wear, and poor oils near 75 microns.
For a pushrod flat-tappet pig-iron engine to operate at 125 bhp, 3,600 rpm, with the oil temperature artificially raised to 150 °C for 100 hours and only generate 40 microns (.0016") of wear on the camshaft and lifter, I believe is pretty impressive.
One thing to keep in mind is that these test protoculs are designed to show differences in various oil formulations. If you use a SM graded oil, you'd be ill-informed to think you'll automatically see 40 microns of wear on your camshaft and lifters with every 100 hours of use.
[ January 26, 2006, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
As long as you don't treat the catalitic converter as a part of the engine, then I agree with that assessment.
I still think in a car that don't burn alot of oil the ZDDP is not doing to kill the cat. When you look at some of the old VOAS from 2002 and 2003 some of the levels of ZDDP in PCMOS are almost as high as the new HDEOS.I have not heard of many cats going out since the late 70's early 80's.
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