Why I Call Dex-Cool "Deathcool"...

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8 years with Dexcool in an LS1 and the only sign of sludge was in the vented overflow bottle-boy was that a mess.
 
This debate/debacle with Dexcool will go on for years.
I have it in everything but the 89 1 ton and have not had a problem.
I also have a 2000 TA WS6. Clean as whistle non pressurized overflow but everything it touches except for the rubber hoses is aluminum.
 
Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
What 440Magnum says is not relevent or true for pressurized reservoirs. As long as the coolant level doesn't drop below the minimum level in the pressurized reservoir, the pressure is always as high or higher than ambient pressure below the fluid level in the reservior in those systems. A leak won't draw in air into the sytem but only release coolant and the level will drop. Which you should be checking the level periodically on all coolant types and systems. What he was saying just isn't the case for pressurized reservoirs. Air below the cap on a pressurized reservoir is not the same thing as air below the cap in a non-presurized reservoir system.

Good thing he said, "namely cooling systems that use non-pressurized overflow tanks".


OK fine, but it's already been said many times before that it can be riskier running Dexcool in a non-pressurized reservoir system. What he is saying is still not totally accurate for non-pressurized reservoirs though because for what he's suggesting to happen there would still need to be a problem with the cap and reservoir hose for there to be a real problem. But I've already said I wouldn't run Dexcool in a non-pressurized reservoir system so I don't really see the point in harping on this issue.

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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
As far as 440Magnum saying there's no evidence that an OAT like Dexcool shows no advantage. that's not really true either. Dexcool system can look prestine with no buildup inside for many miles even past 5 years even without distilled water. That's not to say G-05 or HOAT is bad or not good too and dexcool is perfect, but there are some slight advantages besides a longer storage life to not having silicates, borates and other things in the coolant.

I have to go back to an old argument you and I were having. The HOATs use a LOW DOSE or either silicates (G-05) or phosphates (Asian). Both provide instant protection whereas OATs such as Deathcool take time to do so. This is a fact that has been documented numerous times. Silicates and phosphates are not as evil as the OAT coolant makers claim. Now perhaps they may have been back in the day since both were present in high doses in conventional American green coolant, but even that is debatable.

Keep in mind both silicates and phosphates essentially do the same thing in regards to providing instant protection which is desirable. The Asians prefer phosphates since their water is not has hard as the water in Europe. Here in the U.S., I think the figure is 80-85% of our water is hard water. However, since the vast majority of both OEMs and coolant manufacturers recommend the use of distilled water (preferred) or deionized/demineralized water, this is not really a big concern.


I'm not going to debate all that again. My position hasn't really changed that I'm not convinced this instant protection can only come from phoshpates or silicates. I'm not totally sure that every OEM OAT has phospates or silicates in it. You yourself even posted links to Zerek's Dexcool patent and there were other inhibitors in it and they listed no disadvantage to not using silicates or phosphates and only advantages.
 
I wouldn't say advantages but rather organic alternatives. At any rate, I like and trust the instant protection the silicates of G-05 offer which the organic alternatives probably do not.
 
Here's what I don't understand. If Dexcool really has issues then why hasn't GM dropped it given the years and years of controversy?

I can't image a scenario where bankrupt GM would continue to stick with a supplier that provides an inferior product and increases their warranty claims/exposure.

Can anyone reconcile this little tidbit?

I've seen the slight froth of Dexcool sludge at the filler neck and overflow bottle but the actual radiators have been pristine. This is in contrast to other radiators with std green that have solder bloom and corrosion even though they've been well maintained.

If G05 is superior to Dexcool then why hasn't GM embraced it??
 
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Originally Posted By: davefr




If G05 is superior to Dexcool then why hasn't GM embraced it??
Because Dexcool sells parts. GM makes a bundle off of the problems it causes.
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All I know is that the lumina my wife had before and a short while after we married had a 3.1 (1998) that had the LIM leak and was consuming coolant like crazy....also sludging on the cap...After reading the "gmv6lemon" website and all of the controversy and the cost of the gasket repair, I cleaned it up, topped it off and traded it in as fast as I could.
 
Originally Posted By: davefr
Here's what I don't understand. If Dexcool really has issues then why hasn't GM dropped it given the years and years of controversy?

I can't image a scenario where bankrupt GM would continue to stick with a supplier that provides an inferior product and increases their warranty claims/exposure.

Can anyone reconcile this little tidbit?

I've seen the slight froth of Dexcool sludge at the filler neck and overflow bottle but the actual radiators have been pristine. This is in contrast to other radiators with std green that have solder bloom and corrosion even though they've been well maintained.

If G05 is superior to Dexcool then why hasn't GM embraced it??


Don't let the naysayers discourage you. The real reason is GM knows all about Dexcool and G-05 and they know Dexcool works. They make money off of selling cars and parts, not just selling parts. GM is not fundamentally a part seller they are an automaker. they couldn't get anywhere just building cars designed to require more parts and repairs. No one would buy their cars or parts.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: davefr




If G05 is superior to Dexcool then why hasn't GM embraced it??
Because Dexcool sells parts. GM makes a bundle off of the problems it causes.
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If so, they would be the major buyer of those parts due to warranty claims.
 
And paying for labor. They are warranting powertrains now for 5 years 100k miles all Dexcool filled.

I'm a little on the fence about Dexcool in general since I don't particularly like an anti-freeze that is intolerant of air etc. But on systems properly designed for Dexcool and have their air bled out of them, I think those cooling systems are for the most part self bleeding and remain air free. I don't think Dexcool is about as some people make it out to be and it protects very well.
 
I think there is still one item of curiosity that those you like Deathcool and those of us who hate it want to know. What causes it to fail?

I think we can all agree it does indeed happen. It seems the biggest argument about why is that the coolant level gets low, the cooling system rusts, the rust gets mixed in with the coolant, and forms sludge.

All I can say in regards to that is I have pictures which I posted in the first post of this thread and both systems are full. I know they were kept full because I was the one that kept them that way. The Lumina's radiator cap looks bad because a family member used the car for several months and I was unable to check it. I was surprised it looked as bad as it did yet the Deathcool level was still good in both the overflow tank and radiator. The car saw a lot of gravel roads at that time so maybe that was a factor.

I am not so sure I buy into the low level rust issue. At this time, I buy more into the coolant has turned acidic and therefore corrosive. Deathcool and G-05 seem to have an average pH level of 8.5. The old green syrup was usually above 10.

I don't think any of us will ever know exactly for sure what causes Deathcool to turn [censored] unless GM tells us. I do know many of us have experienced it and I am sure many of us maintain our vehicles and their cooling systems well.
 
Well my belief is that even if you keep the coolant level up, pressure caps on the radiator systems can't be trusted with Dexcool/dexclones or 2-EHA. Maybe the simple fact of just removing the radiator pressure cap to check coolant level and reinstalling creates a small air pocket between the cap seal and the the reservoir portion and that's all it takes to cause some problems.

I am on the fence about Dexcool and 2-EHA. I believe it can work well with a pressurized reservoir system and seems to protect fine against cavitation corrosion, And if the gaskets are selected to be compatible.

But why I'm on the fence is I can't say I'm crazy about a coolant that is intolerant to air in the system or one that might be aggressive with certain types of plastics. I just believe from what I've seen most all '04 and newer GM vehicles seem to have no Dexcool issues.

Also I'm not willing to throw out all OATs based on Dexcool and 2-EHA's past history. But I also can't say for sure the other OAT, namely PGL, gives equal or better corrosion protection than Dexcool and none of it's issues. that's what I'd like to find out. This is just what I think from all of what I've been able to gather together.
 
Having worn out dozens of GM trucks, cars, and SUV's over the past 35 years, I have yet to experience any Deathcool issues. My last van retired at well over 400k miles, super severe duty cycle, never any coolant or related issues.

Perhaps it is because I hate V6 FWD? All of mine were V8 RWD platforms, and most are Savana 3500 vans.

My theory is the small volume systems used on smaller displacement motors (to accelerate warmup) are simply more likely to experience these issues. This would seem to be supported by what I read here.

I remain perplexed by the anti sentiment. Dex works well for me.
 
You can remain perplexed all you want. Your ancedotial evidence doesn't mask the fact that Dexcool caused a lot of problems with LIMs in the mid-late 90s and the early 2000s. Those problems usually showed up after the warranty expired.

I special ordered and bought a '97 C2500HD with the 5.7 Vortec engine. Followed a rigorous maintenance schedule, and expected the truck to last forever. At the 7 year point, the LIM gasket failed. After examining the mushed (sorry about the "technical" term) gasket, I'd bet the farm that the problem was caused by Dexcool.

I bought my father-in-law a '01 Alero with the 3.4. It came back about a year ago with massive coolant leaks from the LIM and the thermostat bypass pipe. I believe these leaks were caused by a poor design with the bypass pipe, and the LIM bolts becoming loose. Dexcool may have played a contributing factor, but I would not bet the farm on that one.

I've also bought a '02 Z-28 Camaro. No problems with the cooling system on this beast.

GM developed Dexcool, and gets a licensing fee for every gallon sold. You wonder why they won't admit the stuff is [censored], and caused problems in a lot of previously reliable vehicles? It's become a company run by accountants, and I've probably bought my last one because of the Deathcool fiasco.
 
Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
I guess I have been lucky catching it early enough to do something about it...


The first two images are from a 2003 Chevy S-10 4.3L.



I didn't know that Chevy still had a radiator cap on 2003 models.
 
Originally Posted By: Loobed
Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
I guess I have been lucky catching it early enough to do something about it...


The first two images are from a 2003 Chevy S-10 4.3L.



I didn't know that Chevy still had a radiator cap on 2003 models.


Some still did, the W-body like Impala, Grand Prix and whatever did.
 
Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
You can remain perplexed all you want. Your ancedotial evidence doesn't mask the fact that Dexcool caused a lot of problems with LIMs in the mid-late 90s and the early 2000s. Those problems usually showed up after the warranty expired.

I special ordered and bought a '97 C2500HD with the 5.7 Vortec engine. Followed a rigorous maintenance schedule, and expected the truck to last forever. At the 7 year point, the LIM gasket failed. After examining the mushed (sorry about the "technical" term) gasket, I'd bet the farm that the problem was caused by Dexcool.

I bought my father-in-law a '01 Alero with the 3.4. It came back about a year ago with massive coolant leaks from the LIM and the thermostat bypass pipe. I believe these leaks were caused by a poor design with the bypass pipe, and the LIM bolts becoming loose. Dexcool may have played a contributing factor, but I would not bet the farm on that one. [


I can understand you skepticism. You got 2 bad apples or models with incompatible IMG and/or a non-pressurized reservoir.

Quote:
I've also bought a '02 Z-28 Camaro. No problems with the cooling system on this beast.


This is an example why excepting for some models Dexcool can work. This model had a compatible gasket and I think a pressurized reservoir.


Quote:
GM developed Dexcool, and gets a licensing fee for every gallon sold. You wonder why they won't admit the stuff is [censored], and caused problems in a lot of previously reliable vehicles? It's become a company run by accountants, and I've probably bought my last one because of the Deathcool fiasco.


I think Texaco has part of the blame and might have sort of duped GM some. GM still should've more thouroughly tested the coolant on all their models before using it. I also blame GM for taking so long to correct the problem. The licensing thing is not a bad deal really. It assures the product meets the specs. I'm not sure GM gets a royalty per se for licensing a product only GM recieves a fee for testing it and of course that fee gets added on to each product, but I'm not sure that it is a lot. You can get unlicensed Dexcool a little cheaper if someone preferred. If not Dexcool GM could change to another formula and license it just as well, so I think it is a non-issue with GM's Dexcool continued use.
 
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