Blow-by and additive questions w/ details!

[aaron98801]

Firs off this is my first post, on any forum, so hang with me and any advice on forum etiquette would be appreciated. My car is a 1999 Suzuki Esteem with the smaller 1.6l engine (111,000 miles). I purchased the car about 10,000 miles ago. I use either Mobile 1 full synthetic high mileage 5w-30 or Valvoline Max Life (full synthetic type) 5w-30 and a Bosch filter. This car had blow-by when I bought it but it was well priced and runs and drives VERY well for what it is and what I paid (like new for the most part).

The car ocasionally will blow a little blue smoke on a cold morning for 2-3 seconds, not enough to effect oil consumption with 3,000 mile OCI. Even though it burns oil occasionally on a cold morning for only couple seconds it really doesnt burn any oil other than that, but i thought the ocassionaly blue smoke at cold start was worth mentioning (maybe a leaky valve seal?). The PCV valve is new and the only complain I have there is that oil seeps past it quite easily, not a considerable amount though. The blow-by hose that goes to the air intake before the throttle body is clear, not clogged, and like the PCV valve a few drops of oil make it through there (not enough to collect, or even show up in the air intake tube). The plugs look great and do not foul, the first set I changed were very worn out but not fouled in any way.

Basically if you pull the oil fill cap or oil dip stick there is a considerable amount of air blowing out, no smoke at all, just air. From what I understand a engine with a modern PCV system should not act this way and this is a sign of worn rings. Is this a sign of badly worn rings or just minimally worn rings? Other vehicles in the family that are maintained poorly and have twice the milleage have zero blow-by and it is a little frustrating that my engine is showing these signs.

I thought that the details above might help. If there are anymore questions I will gladly answer them.

The questions that I really want to answer are:
1. Is this something that I should worry about if I want to get another 100,000+ miles out of the car.
2. Are there any additive (or oil, types, grades, etc.) that may help reduce the blow-by without causing any other damage.
3. Are there any techniques to help minimize this without a total rebuild or motor swap.
4. Is it better to let the Blow-by blow or if an additive helps reduce it is it better to use that additive.

Restore is a product that I heard may help but I feel it is more of a quick fix that contains some stuff I might not want in my engine (I could be wrong about this). I could use it at every OCI if it works and has minimal side effects if that's what it takes

Rislone Compression repair with Ring seal is another product that claims to help. (link: http://www.barsproducts.com/4444.htm ) is a product that I am thinking about trying as well. If it works I could use it at every oil change as well.

There are others as well but these are the ones that seem to possibly be the most promising.

I will be doing a compression test tomorrow and will post the results tomorrow. I don't have access to a leak down tester at this time so it will be compression test only.

One more thing. I change the oil every 3,000 mile, early with synthetic IMO, because of possible contamination from the blow-by. I also plan to switch to Valvoline Max Life semi-synthetic, or something similar (any recommendations?) because I think it is plenty good enough for this car with 3,000 mile OCI, I really think the full synthetic is overboard for this little car. With that said the car mainly sees short 1-5 mile trips 10+ times a day with 1-2 300mile road trips each month.

Thanks in advance for taking any of your time to reply.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Run 15w-40 and fuggedaboudit.


Maybe some 2-cycle oil in the gas.

You could and should do a piston soak with 2-3oz light oils and solvents mixed and poured into the sparkplug holes. Crank it and let sit overnight. Crank some more and then do an intake cleaning the next day.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well first check the PCV it might be worn out and need replacing. Second I would recomend LubeControl20 they are a site sponsor and make a great product. I would pick up one gallon of their product.I would run the product at twice to current treat rate. Years ago Terry and few other's lobbied Odis Beaver the guy that came up with this stuff and used to sell it to reduce the dosages in 1/2 for modern car's and oils so he did. The problem with that htough is that it makes the treatment rate two little for higher millage vechiles like your that need to see some significant cleaning more then they need to extend the oil change interval.

I alway thought changing the directions on the bottle was a huge mistake because now people take those like they are gospel when in fact less then 3 years ago I think it was they where double what they are now.

I would put 1/2 a quart in that engine in place of 1/2 a quart of oil and drive it like that and then follow the directions ont he side of the jug just doubleing them along the way. LubeControl20 is not a solvent like MMO or an Engine flush it is a lubricant in it's own right. Because it is almost an ester it has some polarity and can do some of the thigns an ester can do like get under grime to get at the metal. It is not designed as a cleaner but works great as one on everything from varnish to light sludge and does great on carbon deposits. It will clean the rings very well.

The above each oil change until that gallonis gone. Your engine will be as clean as it will ever get and if their is anything wrong with it that was oil related it should now be cured.Now you go to a quality synthetic and not worry about anything else going on.

Lube Controls main purpose is to control oxidation in your oil many people use it with dino oil and go 10K miles or more on dino oil while useing it. After the above you could use it at regular current dosage instructions and keep that engine as clean as it is indefinately!

 

[duaneb9729]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: aaron98801
Basically if you pull the oil fill cap or oil dip stick there is a considerable amount of air blowing out, no smoke at all, just air.


When I remove the oil fill cap while my engine is idling I also get puffs of air coming out. I am not a mechanic, but just yesterday I asked a mechanic about this and he said that the PCV valve is closed during idle and this is normal. I'm sure my rings are not worn as my car is virtually new with only 17,500 mile on it, and has been well maintained with Mobil 1 EP at 5,000 mile OCIs. The engine is smooth and has full power with no oil consumption or blue smoke.

Tom NJ

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: aaron98801
Basically if you pull the oil fill cap or oil dip stick there is a considerable amount of air blowing out, no smoke at all, just air.


When I remove the oil fill cap while my engine is idling I also get puffs of air coming out. I am not a mechanic, but just yesterday I asked a mechanic about this and he said that the PCV valve is closed during idle and this is normal. I'm sure my rings are not worn as my car is virtually new with only 17,500 mile on it, and has been well maintained with Mobil 1 EP at 5,000 mile OCIs. The engine is smooth and has full power with no oil consumption or blue smoke.

Tom NJ


I agree, on every car that I've taken the cap off while idling there was definitely some air blowing back out the filler hole. In fact, years ago I remember trying to add some Bardahl Stop Smoke to my idling engine and how difficult it was to do that.

 

[demarpaint]

Funny you mention that because back in the days when STP was the #1 selling oil additive of all time, the only way to add it was pour it into a hot running engine.

 

[bigmike]

This reminds me of my 2.0 Mazda I had. It continually had blow by, but it was also a 1986 with a carb. I always had to clean the airbox because oil was in it. Got to the point where I was changing the breather filter every 5-10k miles because it was soaked. Never did figure out what was wrong because I had changed the PCV valve several times and it appeared to be working. Not sure what to tell you, but it never affected the vehicle. I went over 100k on it that way and it was still running at 202k.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Funny you mention that because back in the days when STP was the #1 selling oil additive of all time, the only way to add it was pour it into a hot running engine.


Yes.... back when overhead valve engines were the norm you could add oil or additives when the engine was running. Try doing that now in a overhead cam engine and it's a challenge.

 

[demarpaint]

I realize that. I'm willing to bet the younger Bitoger's never heard of adding STP to a warm running engine. Back in the 70's that was the #1 oil additive in the world.

 

[mechtech2]

I didn't feel like wading through your post, but I did see 'RESTORE'.
Don't use it.

Sometimes cleaning helps with stuck rings - they get carboned up and varnished an will have less compression and more blow by.

A goo slow cleaning internally from Auto Rx or Marvel Mystery Oil can help.
This is worth a shot.

 

[SrDriver]

We used STP back then too.

 

[aaron98801]

Thank you for all the quick responses. I would like to reply to a few of the posts but I don't know how to quote other posts "in the gray boxes" like I see everyone doing so I will just do my best.

The PCV valve is new and when you pull the pcv valve out of the valve cover there is plenty of vacuum at idle so I know it is working at idle.

As far as additives to help clean up the motor, I am open to new ideas but I thought I would mention what I have already done. I have ran half an OCI with 20% MMO (about 1,500 miles). I have also added about 5 ounces of seafoam to the oil, different OCI than when I used MMO, and drove the car 15 miles to my dads garage and changed the oil. The engine sems to be pretty clean because it doesnt dirty the oil much even with a good detergent oil like M1 high mileage. I also used the seafoam in the vacuum lines, let it sit, drove it, and changed the plugs. (also cleaned the throttle body with throttle body cleaner at the same time).

I do think I will try a piston soak as a last resort to maybe free uup some sticky rings. Any suggestions on what product to use (MMO, seafoam, something else). I will do this before the next oil change.

Also, I have pulled the oil cap on a few cars lately, all high mileage, and none of them blew any air out. If anything there was a vacuum from the PCV system. Could just be a coincidence though.

Here is something I found that was interesting ( http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/ ). It says that if blow-by is already an issue that using synthetic oil can make the issue worse, but it does not cause blow-by. Because of this and the fact that I keep up on my oil changes I plan to swith back to conventional or possibly valvoline max life synthetic blend. I would like to use the blend but I think it would be best to just switch to conventional and see if it makes and difference at all.

 

[steve20]

I wouldn't put anything other than gas in the tank-wouldn't even change the oil on it-when it gets to the point of burning some, just add some houyse brand and be done with it.

 

[aaron98801]

I don't put anything other than gas in the tank. I change the oil every 3,000 and the most I have ever had to add is a 1/3 of a quart, usually I don't need to add any.

So your advice is to never change the oil and to just wait until the oil gets so bad it starts to burn a considerable amount and to just keep topping it off at that point. I think we would all agree here that that is bad advice.

As I mentioned above the blow-by that I am experiencing has not cause any oil burning, other than an occasional puff of blue smoke on a cold morning, sometimes, and I don't think that is caused by blow-by. I think that is caused by bad valve seals.

My only concern is if the considerable amount of air coming out of the oil fill, dip stick, blow by hose, etc. is a sign of a worn engine and if there is anything I can do to minimize this.

 

[BearZDefect]

Let's see... if the engine runs well, fuel consumption is good, power output is good, and it only consumes 1/3 quart of oil in 3,000 miles, what is there to worry about?

With that oil change interval use a conventional oil and enjoy your car.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: aaron98801
Basically if you pull the oil fill cap or oil dip stick there is a considerable amount of air blowing out, no smoke at all, just air.


When I remove the oil fill cap while my engine is idling I also get puffs of air coming out. I am not a mechanic, but just yesterday I asked a mechanic about this and he said that the PCV valve is closed during idle and this is normal. I'm sure my rings are not worn as my car is virtually new with only 17,500 mile on it, and has been well maintained with Mobil 1 EP at 5,000 mile OCIs. The engine is smooth and has full power with no oil consumption or blue smoke.

Tom NJ


To Tom and the OP (

Arron )

Take a piece of paper and place it above the oil filler hole at idle. I think you'll see it flapping against the oil filler hole. Keep in mind that aside form the minor blow by gasses produced during idle the PCV system (if it's a true PCV valve it's a regulated and filtered manifold leak) is soaking them up.

How can I say this to make sense? Exhale HARD with your hand in front of your face. Now see if you feel the draw when you inhale. No, you don't. You'll create a collapsing vortex (a term pulled out of my behind) that will draw from 360° of your mouth. When you exhale, you'll have an expanding vortex (another term I pulled out of my behind) that will try and push at right angles as it collides with static air.

You're just not seeing the intake pulse and only feeling the high frequency of the exhaust pulse(s). Maybe that was an easier way to say it.

The oil fill hole will have inverted cycles of what you see on the outside. The hole will be a nozzle 50% of the time ..and a drain the other 50%. Just add frequency and you only see the plume.

I had the same

scratching head feeling until Shannow straightened me out. The flapping paper thing was my adaptation from testing for bad exhaust valves against the tail pipe.

 

[mechtech2]

Air flow out of oil fill holes when a car is idling varies.
From a slight vacuum, to a wavy neutrality, to a pulsating in/out, to actual blowing out, can all be normal.
Especially with fixed orfice valve or constant flow systems, like old BMWs.
That hole is supposed to be sealed and the engine is running differently than it otherwise would.

 

[JMJNet]

I would try Auto-RX. I know all the hater will flame on me but it has worked for me better than anything out there. Unless the blow-by is caused by anything mechanical. It is not for all problems but worth a shot. It is slow but steady. By the way, I am not paid by Auto-RX, just a satisfied customer!!! The flamer (c3po, etc.) always said everybody that suggest Auto-RX to be accused to working or being paid by them.

Have you done a compression test? Also, is there any oil leaks from main seal? Leaks can cause a lot of oxidation in the oil.

 

[aaron98801]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


To Tom and the OP (

Arron )

Take a piece of paper and place it above the oil filler hole at idle. I think you'll see it flapping against the oil filler hole. Keep in mind that aside form the minor blow by gasses produced during idle the PCV system (if it's a true PCV valve it's a regulated and filtered manifold leak) is soaking them up.

How can I say this to make sense? Exhale HARD with your hand in front of your face. Now see if you feel the draw when you inhale. No, you don't. You'll create a collapsing vortex (a term pulled out of my behind) that will draw from 360° of your mouth. When you exhale, you'll have an expanding vortex (another term I pulled out of my behind) that will try and push at right angles as it collides with static air.

You're just not seeing the intake pulse and only feeling the high frequency of the exhaust pulse(s). Maybe that was an easier way to say it.

The oil fill hole will have inverted cycles of what you see on the outside. The hole will be a nozzle 50% of the time ..and a drain the other 50%. Just add frequency and you only see the plume.

I had the same

scratching head feeling until Shannow straightened me out. The flapping paper thing was my adaptation from testing for bad exhaust valves against the tail pipe.


You are absolutely right. With a piece of paper over the oil fill hole it flaps in and out. You did a good job of explaining this concept by the way. Does this mean that since its not just "blowing" that its not really the kind of blow by that you would get from considerably worn rings. Just curious. I would refine this post a little better but I gotta get to thanksgiving dinner. Thanks guys. (I am feeling more and more that this is normal, kind of, and not anything to really worry about.)