ZDDP
- Thread starter disturban
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OTOH a little bit won't hurt.
Originally Posted By: Ndx
No .. Unless u have engine with Flat Tappets
I do actually have flat tappets...so what additive would be a good choice as far as name brands? I would like to try to avoid any products that have a bunch of other [censored] in them. Also I need a product that I can purchase from Autozone, Pepboys or NAPA.
No .. Unless u have engine with Flat Tappets
I do actually have flat tappets...so what additive would be a good choice as far as name brands? I would like to try to avoid any products that have a bunch of other [censored] in them. Also I need a product that I can purchase from Autozone, Pepboys or NAPA.
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Well if you can use one of the various Diesel oils out there in it, you wont need it. Some 5w40, 10w30, or 15w40 will work in most cars in most climates.
I am not sure what is available at the local auto parts store. If I didn't already have tons of zddp additive (closeouts at Big Lots a few years back), I would be buying the Redline Breakin Additive, which IIRC has about 5000 ppm zinc and phosphorus (there is a thread on it that should be referenced). Anyway, one bottle of the Redline breakin additive could treat 2 or 3 oil changes. Yeah, it's mail order, but you could stock up on several bottles.
Redline Breakin Additive has: 20000ppm Zn/17000ppm P in the form of ZDDP; and 20000ppm Ca in the form of a sulfonate or phenate detergent. It comes in a 16 oz bottle. 4 oz put into 5 qts of oil wull raise Zn by ~450ppm and P by ~390ppm. If you have a typical 7-800ppm P SM oil it will raise P to 11-1200ppm. I most definitely wouldn't use over 8 oz (1/2 bottle) into 5 qts of even very "weak" oil.
The figures on concentration were communicated to me directly, verbally, by a Redline engineer.
Charlie
The figures on concentration were communicated to me directly, verbally, by a Redline engineer.
Charlie
Charlie, You da man!
Originally Posted By: disturban
Originally Posted By: Ndx
No .. Unless u have engine with Flat Tappets
I do actually have flat tappets...so what additive would be a good choice as far as name brands? I would like to try to avoid any products that have a bunch of other [censored] in them. Also I need a product that I can purchase from Autozone, Pepboys or NAPA.
I have been using Valvoline VR-1 10W-30 in my flat tappet CC XE 274 cam 383 stroker, for 4 years, with great results. ZDDP is 0.14/0.13.
No boo-tique oil or mouse milk/snake oil additives needed.
I buy mine at the local NAPA. Sometimes it has to be ordered, not a big deal.
Originally Posted By: Ndx
No .. Unless u have engine with Flat Tappets
I do actually have flat tappets...so what additive would be a good choice as far as name brands? I would like to try to avoid any products that have a bunch of other [censored] in them. Also I need a product that I can purchase from Autozone, Pepboys or NAPA.
I have been using Valvoline VR-1 10W-30 in my flat tappet CC XE 274 cam 383 stroker, for 4 years, with great results. ZDDP is 0.14/0.13.
No boo-tique oil or mouse milk/snake oil additives needed.
I buy mine at the local NAPA. Sometimes it has to be ordered, not a big deal.
Sure it will not hurt anything so if you want to use it use it. Novel idea but why not try a UOA with and with out it and see what the results look like!
Well, you can google bitog about the VOA of the STP additive. I calculated this a while ago and can't remember, but I think it would raise the zinc PPM's about 100 or 200 for every half bottle (7.5 ounces); i.e., not all that much. But, I think you'd improve a lower additive oil sufficiently by adding half or a full bottle of STP together with adding in half or a full quart of a high zinc 15w40 oil, like texaco havoline or pennzoil, which also have high boron levels, plus adding a little moly in. Zinc, moly, and boron should work very well together.
Yes, I wish that STP was more concentrated in ZDDP; like the OP, I'd be curious to know what a more powerful zinc additive is.
Yes, I wish that STP was more concentrated in ZDDP; like the OP, I'd be curious to know what a more powerful zinc additive is.
If you have one of the very few engines that really needs more zinc in the oil, just buy your choice of a 10W-30 or other viscosity of dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine oil. Shell's Rotella is a big favorite for no specific reason...every name brand does as well.
Originally Posted By: ueberooo
Yes, I wish that STP was more concentrated in ZDDP; like the OP, I'd be curious to know what a more powerful zinc additive is.
A more powerful Zinc additive would be Red Line break in oil additive. There is some information about it on this site. It is a good product, and can be used as a break in add, or to boost Zinc levels if that is what you are looking to do.
Yes, I wish that STP was more concentrated in ZDDP; like the OP, I'd be curious to know what a more powerful zinc additive is.
A more powerful Zinc additive would be Red Line break in oil additive. There is some information about it on this site. It is a good product, and can be used as a break in add, or to boost Zinc levels if that is what you are looking to do.
thanks dp, i googled it and whoa the stuff is concentrated (unlike STP) i wish the stuff were more common in local stores.
I came across this article by the way; the guy is a strong proponent of the idea that new oil formulations are lacking in sufficient ZDDP, and has some guesses why:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Now, getting really off topic, he also mentions moly in some of these new formulations as taking over some of the ZDDP's work, but at a cost; for one, supposedly moly can in cases be pretty caustic to the copper components in the engine, esp if some of the chemical balancers wear out during long oil change intervals:
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/engine-and-drivetrain/22022-why-not-use-moly-based-engine/
hmmm...
I came across this article by the way; the guy is a strong proponent of the idea that new oil formulations are lacking in sufficient ZDDP, and has some guesses why:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Now, getting really off topic, he also mentions moly in some of these new formulations as taking over some of the ZDDP's work, but at a cost; for one, supposedly moly can in cases be pretty caustic to the copper components in the engine, esp if some of the chemical balancers wear out during long oil change intervals:
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/engine-and-drivetrain/22022-why-not-use-moly-based-engine/
hmmm...
oops sorry the edit option timed out, that should read:
moly can in cases be mildly caustic to the copper parts in the engine, should enough of the chemical balancers wear out during the long oil change intervals
rather than:
"moly can in cases be pretty caustic to the copper components in the engine, esp if some of the chemical balancers wear out during long oil change intervals:"
moly can in cases be mildly caustic to the copper parts in the engine, should enough of the chemical balancers wear out during the long oil change intervals
rather than:
"moly can in cases be pretty caustic to the copper components in the engine, esp if some of the chemical balancers wear out during long oil change intervals:"
AFter chatting with the people at Rosemill & Lowerfriction.com, both said that moly is non caustic to engine parts, including copper. Makes it more confusing.
Where is the copper in your engines?
Under the lead in the bearings? It's too late then, anyway!
Under the lead in the bearings? It's too late then, anyway!
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Where is the copper in your engines?
Under the lead in the bearings? It's too late then, anyway!
Yes, at that point it wouldn't matter anyway. Given a choice of only 1 ZDDP or Moly, I think I'd go with the Moly. I wouldn't be to concerned about it being caustic.
Where is the copper in your engines?
Under the lead in the bearings? It's too late then, anyway!
Yes, at that point it wouldn't matter anyway. Given a choice of only 1 ZDDP or Moly, I think I'd go with the Moly. I wouldn't be to concerned about it being caustic.
Taking out all the zddp would be disasterous IMO. Quoted straight off zddp wiki article's link:
Quote:
This leads us to the main point of this article--zinc, or more specifically the lack of it in today's oils. Oil companies started adding ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) to engine oil back in the 1950s to help reduce wear and tear during engine start-up. How important is ZDDP to your classic Mustang's engine? It reduces bearing and journal wear by a factor of 20. It's that important.
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0907_zddp_zinc_additive_engine_oil/index.html
The trend that they are significantly reducing ZDDP IMO is stupid. I am of the philosophy that a car should last for about 25 years, and go through 2 sets of catalytic converters during its lifetime anyways. My car is 14 years old, run often with higher zinc (diesel grade 15w40 make up oil), on its 1st cat, and passed the emissions testing in pdx by orders of magnitude I believe; I can post the results in fact. It seems like zinc is the mushy sort of 1st line of defense that occurs on frequent occasions, and the moly is the last line of defense and happens much more rarely and usually under conditions like very high rpms. Never ran it without zinc (though the trend is that oil formulations are halving it from optimal levels) but the car lived most its earlier life without moly.
Quote:
This leads us to the main point of this article--zinc, or more specifically the lack of it in today's oils. Oil companies started adding ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) to engine oil back in the 1950s to help reduce wear and tear during engine start-up. How important is ZDDP to your classic Mustang's engine? It reduces bearing and journal wear by a factor of 20. It's that important.
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0907_zddp_zinc_additive_engine_oil/index.html
The trend that they are significantly reducing ZDDP IMO is stupid. I am of the philosophy that a car should last for about 25 years, and go through 2 sets of catalytic converters during its lifetime anyways. My car is 14 years old, run often with higher zinc (diesel grade 15w40 make up oil), on its 1st cat, and passed the emissions testing in pdx by orders of magnitude I believe; I can post the results in fact. It seems like zinc is the mushy sort of 1st line of defense that occurs on frequent occasions, and the moly is the last line of defense and happens much more rarely and usually under conditions like very high rpms. Never ran it without zinc (though the trend is that oil formulations are halving it from optimal levels) but the car lived most its earlier life without moly.
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