noisy lifter on ford explorer -should I tear into?

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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Trav
Used in a generic way "lifter" is totally acceptable terminology.
These are actually "lifters" in the 4.0 as they "lift" the rear of the cam follower to remove play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_tappet

Timing chains are a known issue.Any plastic particles when doing a oil change?


Lol, wikipedia for engine advice
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A lifter, in the traditional sense, is a flat or roller cylinder which follows the profile of the camshaft to operate on a pushrod, actuating a rocker and opening the valve.

This is a LASH adjuster, because that is what it does. It removes excessive lash from the rocker. They are no different than the hydraulic lash adjusters used in the Modular family, and operate in the same way.

The term "lifter" is a misnomer here, since the valve would still open if the device were not present, since this device does not actually actuate the valve.

The wikipedia article you cited is already flagged for having issues, and I imagine this is why.

I'm sure for many that it is nice to "dumb it down" and classify them all as one in the same, since the two you are thinking of are both hydraulic cylinders, but one acts directly on the rocker CAUSING lift as well as controlling lash, whilst the other simply controls lash.

non-hydraulic lifters such as solid lifters and solid roller lifters of course provide no lash compensation function, yet are still lifters.

This is why the separate term "hydraulic lash adjuster" exists, and of course omits the word "lifter" from the phrase.....

By the way, I am NOT intending this to sound harsh, so please don't take it that way. The distinction was always noted by my mechanics teacher, and in our textbooks and I think it is an important one to note. As the uses are specific between pushrod and overhead cam engines.


I said "Used in a generic way "lifter" is totally acceptable terminology." And still maintain that in this situation the word lifter is fine.
Anyone who has worked on engines knows exactly what the OP meant.
Call them lifters,tappets,buckets,Hydrostößel,Tassenstößel,hydraulic lash adjusters it is of no concern to the condition the OP complained about.
If we were discussing technical terms then you have may have an arguable point but we are talking about a possible stuck lifter or adjuster here.

Regardless of name both cause the common tapping sound when worn or stuck with contaminates,varnish or just plain worn out.
When a customer says to me "i think i have a stuck lifter" i know exactly what he is talking about.

Does the so called lash adjuster lift the rear of the cam follower to remove play in this engine?If it does i would call it closer to a lifter regardless.On the other hand a lash adjuster directly between the cam and valve AKA bucket type,Tassenstößel is definitely not.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav

I said "Used in a generic way "lifter" is totally acceptable terminology." And still maintain that in this situation the word lifter is fine.
Anyone who has worked on engines knows exactly what the OP meant.


That is not the point. A customer comes to me and tells me their hard drive is dead. Most of the time they mean their computer. Just because I know what they MEANT to say, doesn't make it right. Same as when they call it the CPU.

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Call them lifters,tappets,buckets,Hydrostößel,Tassenstößel,hydraulic lash adjusters it is of no concern to the condition the OP complained about.


Sure it is, if that is what is causing the noise. I don't see why you are taking issue with the OP learning the correct term for the device? Notice the interest he showed as soon as I mentioned the term? Post #1661268.

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If we were discussing technical terms then you have may have an arguable point but we are talking about a possible stuck lifter or adjuster here.


So using the correct technical terms outside of specific technical discussion is invalid? How does that work? Do we just dumb down our language to a series of grunts and belches and assume the other party knows what we are talking about?

Here I thought the idea of clear communication, and subsequently, using language and phrases that are as accurate as possible would be conducive to proper thought conveyance and discussion style.

That is, I feel it would be beneficial if the correct terms for things are used, and if additional information can be provided that assists in a party learning something in the process, I see it of no detriment to the direction of the discussion at hand.

For example, I have now learned two new German terms thanks to your post!


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Regardless of name both cause the common tapping sound when worn or stuck with contaminates,varnish or just plain worn out.


Yes, they do. But that doesn't make the distinction any less important.

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When a customer says to me "i think i have a stuck lifter" i know exactly what he is talking about.


And when a customer tells me their CPU or Hard Drive won't turn on, I will make it a point to indicate that those are two components inside their actual system, not the name of the system itself. And I will then proceed to SHOW them those components and give them a quick explanation of what each of them DO so that they KNOW for next time.

Part of the issue with society is that people do NOT know enough about their cars. But that is a topic for another time.

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Does the so called lash adjuster lift the rear of the cam follower to remove play in this engine?If it does i would call it closer to a lifter regardless.


Ford calls it a lash adjuster.

And yes, it is like a miniature flat-tappet hydraulic lifter that sits in a hole on in the head and has a slot in it that the rocker slides into. The rocker has a large roller in the centre, and the other end fits over the top of the valve.

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On the other hand a lash adjuster directly between the cam and valve AKA bucket type,Tassenstößel is definitely not.


Interested in the use of the German terminology, are you German or do you just primarily work on German cars?
 
Jeez when speaking casually even the most savvy techs use the term "lifter" for cam follower, tappet, lash adjuster etc. If the cam follower is not also the lash adjuster most people won't say lifter. It's understood that Lifter=lash adjuster in that case and not the rocker/cam follower. Everyone knows that either way it's the same part depending on the specific engine model. Just my opinion
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LOL, my mechanics teacher was pretty anal about that stuff, and so is my customer/mechanic that I use for stuff when I don't have the time or equipment to do. They both use the specific terms, as do I due to my education on the subject.

I'm not faulting the use, I'm simply stating that there is a "specific" term for this device, and is the term used by the manufacturer as well.

I'm the guy in casual conversation who always has to use the correct terms, and if I use an incorrect term, I would hope somebody corrects me.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Trav

I said "Used in a generic way "lifter" is totally acceptable terminology." And still maintain that in this situation the word lifter is fine.
Anyone who has worked on engines knows exactly what the OP meant.


That is not the point. A customer comes to me and tells me their hard drive is dead. Most of the time they mean their computer. Just because I know what they MEANT to say, doesn't make it right. Same as when they call it the CPU.

Quote:
Call them lifters,tappets,buckets,Hydrostößel,Tassenstößel,hydraulic lash adjusters it is of no concern to the condition the OP complained about.


Sure it is, if that is what is causing the noise. I don't see why you are taking issue with the OP learning the correct term for the device? Notice the interest he showed as soon as I mentioned the term? Post #1661268.

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If we were discussing technical terms then you have may have an arguable point but we are talking about a possible stuck lifter or adjuster here.


So using the correct technical terms outside of specific technical discussion is invalid? How does that work? Do we just dumb down our language to a series of grunts and belches and assume the other party knows what we are talking about?

Here I thought the idea of clear communication, and subsequently, using language and phrases that are as accurate as possible would be conducive to proper thought conveyance and discussion style.

That is, I feel it would be beneficial if the correct terms for things are used, and if additional information can be provided that assists in a party learning something in the process, I see it of no detriment to the direction of the discussion at hand.

For example, I have now learned two new German terms thanks to your post!


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Regardless of name both cause the common tapping sound when worn or stuck with contaminates,varnish or just plain worn out.


Yes, they do. But that doesn't make the distinction any less important.

Quote:
When a customer says to me "i think i have a stuck lifter" i know exactly what he is talking about.


And when a customer tells me their CPU or Hard Drive won't turn on, I will make it a point to indicate that those are two components inside their actual system, not the name of the system itself. And I will then proceed to SHOW them those components and give them a quick explanation of what each of them DO so that they KNOW for next time.

Part of the issue with society is that people do NOT know enough about their cars. But that is a topic for another time.

Quote:
Does the so called lash adjuster lift the rear of the cam follower to remove play in this engine?If it does i would call it closer to a lifter regardless.


Ford calls it a lash adjuster.

And yes, it is like a miniature flat-tappet hydraulic lifter that sits in a hole on in the head and has a slot in it that the rocker slides into. The rocker has a large roller in the centre, and the other end fits over the top of the valve.

Quote:
On the other hand a lash adjuster directly between the cam and valve AKA bucket type,Tassenstößel is definitely not.


Interested in the use of the German terminology, are you German or do you just primarily work on German cars?


I am German.
I mentally translate every part to the most commonly accepted English name used.

MB engineers in their technical manuals state that when an engine uses a conventional valve train with push rods and rocker arms then the correct term would be "lifter".

They also point out the difference between engines using OHC with and without cam followers.

Roughly translated from my almost 30 year old Uni text books.
When used in conventional valve trains the correct term is
Hydrolifter,this term is also technically correct when a hydraulic device is used used in conjunction with cam followers to remove lash in the valve actuating system.

It goes on to say that when the adjusting device is used on top of the valve and is actuated directly by the camshaft then the term lash adjuster is correct,this applies to both shim type,wedged screw type(common on older VW/Audi/Porsche 924)and hydraulic designs.

It should also be noted that any hydraulic lifter is in effect a hydraulic lash adjuster even on conventional valve trains as it does remove valve train lash.

IMHO this make the terms "lifter" and "hydraulic lash adjuster" interchangeable when talking about the design used in the OP's 4.0.

I am all for using the correct terminology but as mechanicx points out this is a casual discussion and everyone is using the same sheet of music.Correcting someone is fine if their description is way off base i.e. calling a crankshaft a camshaft and so on but in this discussion may cloud the issue,possibly leading to some confusion about the actual part being discussed.
The term lifter is truly an accepted generic term that everyone in the industry understands.

If a customer knows the HDD is gone and knows what a HDD is and knows what it does i dont think i would bother to point out the difference between IDE or SATA if he didn't say my SATA II drive wont spin up but my IDE backup drive connected to the master IDE circuit does,would you?
 
Russel i apologize for that.I didn't mean for it to go so far.

I would probably try as others have suggested and run a qt of MMO for at least a thousand miles,maybe even a whole OCI.
You probably do have a sticky lifter/lash adjuster.

I would definitely dump the Lucas as its just basically an oil thickener.Personally i don't advocate strong solvents but in the case of a lifter that is stuck i would run a can of chemtool for 5 min before changing the oil.
Do this on a warm engine and only run it at idle no more than 5 min.Chemtool really does work well on varnish.

ARX may work over time but from my own experience it doesn't do as well on varnish as it does build up.

If that doesn't free it then use a mechanics stethoscope to isolate the offending part as close as possible.
The job requires 2 special tools,one to depress the valve and the other to prevent the valve spring from bottoming out possibly damaging the seal.

Both tools should cost about $150 total,the job is pretty straight forward and can be done at home without problems.

As posted elsewhere in this thread use the scope to eliminate the fuel injectors,they can get quite loud when worn.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav

If a customer knows the HDD is gone and knows what a HDD is and knows what it does i dont think i would bother to point out the difference between IDE or SATA if he didn't say my SATA II drive wont spin up but my IDE backup drive connected to the master IDE circuit does,would you?


Yup, I seriously would
grin2.gif


I imagine the variances between manufacturers comes into play here as well; Ford's terminology may be different than MB's.

How long have you been working for MB for? How long have you been in the US?

I have a client who emigrated from Germany in the 70's. He was born in the early 30's. I cannot remember the name of the place he is from at the moment, but I have numerous pictures of it, and it is very beautiful. One side of my mom's family emigrated from Germany in the late 1800's to the Southern US.

I have a bit of a fascination with that part of my family's heritage and have been trying to learn German via audio learning guides. Though it is a difficult task with three kids around
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Russel i apologize for that.I didn't mean for it to go so far.

I would probably try as others have suggested and run a qt of MMO for at least a thousand miles,maybe even a whole OCI.
You probably do have a sticky lifter/lash adjuster.

I would definitely dump the Lucas as its just basically an oil thickener.Personally i don't advocate strong solvents but in the case of a lifter that is stuck i would run a can of chemtool for 5 min before changing the oil.
Do this on a warm engine and only run it at idle no more than 5 min.Chemtool really does work well on varnish.

ARX may work over time but from my own experience it doesn't do as well on varnish as it does build up.

If that doesn't free it then use a mechanics stethoscope to isolate the offending part as close as possible.
The job requires 2 special tools,one to depress the valve and the other to prevent the valve spring from bottoming out possibly damaging the seal.

Both tools should cost about $150 total,the job is pretty straight forward and can be done at home without problems.

As posted elsewhere in this thread use the scope to eliminate the fuel injectors,they can get quite loud when worn.


No offense taken.
 
Unfortunately, that motor is junk.

I have had 3 friends that had explorers of that vintage with the 4.0L SOHC motor.

All 3 have had bad timing chain issues. One sounded like a diesel, and two would have problems starting when cold.

Its a shame, because that motor makes very good power for what it is.

Also the gas mileage is terrible. I think the 302 v8 does about the same as the v6.
 
Yep the engine is the real problem., We bought it new in 1998. Was almost trouble free for 10 years. Then we had the treaded timing chain issue. We repalce both front, rear, jackshaft guides, chains and tensioners by an independent shop. Noise is much lower now (believe only lifter/injector) and not apparent when motor is reved above idle. We Maintained it much better than average.

We plan to get a 2007-2008 Lexus RX350 next year, However, everyone thinks they are made of gold. :)

Now my "classic" 95 525i BMW is very much over maintained. I am not kidding.
 
Originally Posted By: Russell
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Unfortunately, that motor is junk.

I have had 3 friends that had explorers of that vintage with the 4.0L SOHC motor.

All 3 have had bad timing chain issues. One sounded like a diesel, and two would have problems starting when cold.

Its a shame, because that motor makes very good power for what it is.

Also the gas mileage is terrible. I think the 302 v8 does about the same as the v6.


It does. And the 302 will make massively more power, is FAR more mod-friendly and much more durable.


Yep the engine is the real problem., We bought it new in 2008. Was almost touble free for 10 years. The we had the treaded timing chain issue. We repalce both front, rear, jackshaft guides, chains and tensioners by an independent shop. Noise is much lower now (believe only lifter/injector) and not apparent when motor is reved above idle. We Maintained it much better than average.

We plan to get a 2007-2008 Lexus RX350 next year, However, everyone thinks they are made of gold. :)

Now my "classic" 95 525i BMW is very much over maintained. I am not kidding.



Why didn't you get the "run forever" 4.6L V8 option?

I ask because "good" V6's have never been a forte for Ford. The 3.8L is known to have head gasket problems, the 4.0L OHV uses more gas than the 5.0L V8 and makes significantly less power. The 4.0L SOHC likes to do what yours did
wink.gif
And the list goes on. Hopefully they've rectified this with the most recent Ecoboost engine.

In contrast, the vast majority of their V8 engines have been phenomenal, dating right back to the Flathead. We've owned probably close to 100 Ford V8 engines since that time frame and I don't think we've actually KILLED one of them. Though we have had a couple freshened.
 
Why didn't you get the "run forever" 4.6L V8 option?

I ask because "good" V6's have never been a forte for Ford. The 3.8L is known to have head gasket problems, the 4.0L OHV uses more gas than the 5.0L V8 and makes significantly less power. The 4.0L SOHC likes to do what yours did
wink.gif
And the list goes on. Hopefully they've rectified this with the most recent Ecoboost engine.

In contrast, the vast majority of their V8 engines have been phenomenal, dating right back to the Flathead. We've owned probably close to 100 Ford V8 engines since that time frame and I don't think we've actually KILLED one of them. Though we have had a couple freshened.


First of all we never imagined that the V6s would be an issue with ford. So the short answer is we did not know better. Even so we had a 100,000 extended warrenty covering most everything including the elecronics.

The more comp[licated answer was my wife needed a vehicle to carry computers around the state of Ky for her job and we needed it quickly so she bopught what was available and presumed a V6 would get better economy tna a V8. Of course, with hindsight we realize it was not the best choice. BTW. we would have had a Toyota 4runner if the dealers would deal.
 
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Quote:


Why didn't you get the "run forever" 4.6L V8 option?

I ask because "good" V6's have never been a forte for Ford. The 3.8L is known to have head gasket problems, the 4.0L OHV uses more gas than the 5.0L V8 and makes significantly less power. The 4.0L SOHC likes to do what yours did
wink.gif
And the list goes on. Hopefully they've rectified this with the most recent Ecoboost engine.

In contrast, the vast majority of their V8 engines have been phenomenal, dating right back to the Flathead. We've owned probably close to 100 Ford V8 engines since that time frame and I don't think we've actually KILLED one of them. Though we have had a couple freshened.


The 4.6L was not available until 2002. That would be the explorer or mountaineer to get. That motor is a fairly rare all aluminum motor (block and heads). Ford put that in the SUV to save some weight.

I would get one with 2wd if I didn't need 4wd or AWD. That would be a truck to hold on to..
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Quote:


Why didn't you get the "run forever" 4.6L V8 option?

I ask because "good" V6's have never been a forte for Ford. The 3.8L is known to have head gasket problems, the 4.0L OHV uses more gas than the 5.0L V8 and makes significantly less power. The 4.0L SOHC likes to do what yours did
wink.gif
And the list goes on. Hopefully they've rectified this with the most recent Ecoboost engine.

In contrast, the vast majority of their V8 engines have been phenomenal, dating right back to the Flathead. We've owned probably close to 100 Ford V8 engines since that time frame and I don't think we've actually KILLED one of them. Though we have had a couple freshened.


The 4.6L was not available until 2002. That would be the explorer or mountaineer to get. That motor is a fairly rare all aluminum motor (block and heads). Ford put that in the SUV to save some weight.

I would get one with 2wd if I didn't need 4wd or AWD. That would be a truck to hold on to..


For some reason I thought his was newer. Just looked back, it is a 1998. The obvious choice would have been the Windsor. They go forever.
 
But if you got the windsor, you ended up with AWD with no low range. The 4.0 came with a transfer case with selectable AWD, traditional 4Hi, and 4Lo. Not to mention it was awfully quick out of the box with 4.10 gearing availible, IIRC.

I've currently got a '97 with the 4.0 SOHC. Moves nicely, makes a bit of noise, but no complaints - 150,000 miles at this point.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
little trivia note, the Ford GT supercar uses the 4.0 SOHC lash adjusters on one side and standard modular lash adjusters on the other side.


That IS very interesting! And I didn't know that. Do you know the reason for it?


i just checked and its the exhaust side. they had a revised exhaust runner for better flow.
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
But if you got the windsor, you ended up with AWD with no low range. The 4.0 came with a transfer case with selectable AWD, traditional 4Hi, and 4Lo. Not to mention it was awfully quick out of the box with 4.10 gearing availible, IIRC.

I've currently got a '97 with the 4.0 SOHC. Moves nicely, makes a bit of noise, but no complaints - 150,000 miles at this point.



I owned a 4.0L OHV, so yes, I am aware of the differences. 1996 also had 2H on the selector for instance.

However, the 5.0L is a much better engine durability-wise. I'd choose the Windsor over any of the other options available at the time. When I got mine, there were no 5.0L ones to be found. Of course 4 months later one popped up....

I have a good friend who just bought a 1997 5.0L. It still gets fantastic fuel mileage compared to my old 4.0L OHV, which my sister now owns. And has more than enough jam that unless he was trying to tow a house, 4LO would be of no use to him.
 
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