Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20

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Honda Red RLI

Genuine Line Bio-Syn

0W20 0W20 0W20

WEAR METALS:

Iron………………………. 1 2 1

Copper……………….. 0 0 0

Tin………………….……. 6 8 0

Lead…………………….. 0 0 1

Chromium……………. 0 0 0

Nickel…………………. 0 0 0

Aluminum………….. 1 2 0

Titanium……………. 0 0 0

Silver……………….. 0 0 0



ADDITIVE METALS:

Calcium….…………. 1545 2213 1893

Magnesium…….…. 8 14 10

Zinc…..………………. 833 1565 1041

Phosphorous……. 831 1219 769

Barium……...……… 4 2 0

Molybdenum………. 1065 1290 0

Antimony………….. 0 0 206



CONTAMINANT METALS:

Silicon…………….… 3 33 1

Sodium……..………… 3 34 10

Boron……….……….. 63 19 13

Potassium…………. 0 0 0

Vanadium………….. 0 0 0



PHYSICAL AND OTHER:

Viscosity 40°C 40.4 43.4 43.5

Viscosity 100°C 8.7 8.3 8.4

Viscosity Index 203 171 174

Flash(CCCFP)°F 410 395 410

TAN…………...………… 1.40 2.12 0.61

TBN……..…………….. 5.2 6.8 6.3

Oxidation…………. 16 158 152

Nitration…………… 4 7 6

Water by KF……. 1226 1676 1553

Fuel……..………….. 0.07 0 0

Soot………..……….. 0 0 0

Glycol……...….. 0.12 0 0

Sulfate byprod. 22 106 122




VOA is by Dyson Analysis. For premium kits, this is an ISO certified lab in TX. They only accept commercial customers, and they have an exclusive agreement with Terry.

Terry recommended RLI 0W20 for my application, a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid, without reservation. I had previously used Red Line 5W30 in my hot-running 1997 Camry V6 with a 5-spd manual. The Red Line 0W20 is fairly new to the market. RL and RLI are arguably the top two ester-based oils, hence this comparison. I was also curious about Honda 0W20, a Group III oil which exceeds GF-4/SM requirements (US version, Barcode 08798-9029).

As always, the contaminant and wear metals can be many things: correctly labeled, intentional additives, chemical reactions, false readings, etc. It’s tricky stuff to read. Similarly, additives have generated many arguments in the past. Which ones are good vs. bad for the engine? With the premium kit, Terry will discuss every element on his MP3. This is not meant to be a teaser, just saying that if you want to know, then hire the man.

Flash point is the Continuously Closed Cup Flash Point (CCCFP). This ASTM D6450 standard is newer than the D93 Pensky-Martens Closed Cup (PMCC). Yeah, I had to look this stuff up. Terry said to add 30-50° F to get the open cup (D92 Cleveland Open Cup - COC). There is no exact conversion factor between closed and open cup.

Notice the Red Line TAN is 2.12, but the RLI is lower at 0.61. I searched BITOG for past RLI VOAs, and the lowest was 1.3 for RLI 0W30 by johnbottilaw on 8/26/08. Something new and presumably good is happening here, but I have no idea what it is.

The Karl Fischer titration measures water in parts per million (ppm), so the oils show water readings between 0.1% and 0.2%. All three oils have water dilution? Not likely.

The Honda 0W20 looks impressive for the price, but base oils created from Group V esters still have advantages:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272

JoeFromPA mentions that ester-based oils start with a TAN of 2-3, but rise slowly:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1486512&page=all

The issue of TAN in ester-based oils is discussed by saaber1 and Tom NJ here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1583684&page=all

NOTE: I asked Terry about performing two additional tests: HTHS and CCS or MRV. He can source these tests, but his educated guess was at a cost of over $300 apiece. This is too rich for my blood, but they are still available for those with deep pockets. Cool specs to know.
 
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?
 
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?
Seems most of the [long life oils] have much higher TBN.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?


The Honda VI is excellent.
Apparently the oil is formulated by Idemitsu.

Toyota's house brand 0W-20 has an even higher VI of 214 (40C vis 39.3 cSt, 100C vis 8.8 cSt), at least those are the spec's for the Canadian product. It's also the cheapest 0W-20 oil in Canada at $4.50/L in a 12L case.
 
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.
 
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.


If you're into numbers you've got to love the Honda (Idemitsu) oil.
It's VI is in a higher league than both RL and RLI.
That translates into a start-up vis that's much lighter while having a higher operating vis'; best of both worlds.

I changed out the 20wt RL in my Caterham with less than a 1000 miles on it in favor of Toyota's 0W-20 which has a VI even higher than Honda's and I'm delighted with it's performance.
 
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.
 
For about $75/case of 12 qts from both Honda and Toyota the price is in line or less than the boutique offerings in the same grade. On paper the Honda offering looks a little better. The UOA reports should be interesting if/when they start coming in.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.


The Honda oil is made at the Idemitsu plant in Jeffersonville Indiana.

The Toyota oil is made at the Nippon Oil Lubricants (America) LLC plant in Childersburg Alabama.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.


If you're into numbers you've got to love the Honda (Idemitsu) oil.
It's VI is in a higher league than both RL and RLI.
That translates into a start-up vis that's much lighter while having a higher operating vis'; best of both worlds.


That extremely high VI also means VIIs/polymeric thickeners. Having a higher VI doesn't mean it is a better oil, and in fact, could possibly indicate just the opposite.
 
Right. I was told even the RL 0w-20 uses some VII's hence the lower HT/HS.
 
Car mfr's like high VI oils and that's where their development usually originates.
Just look at how many high end cars have M1 0W-40 as the FF.

Honda (Idemitsu) and Toyota (Nippon Oil) have now developed a high VI 0W-20 grade with a very robust add' pac' and these oils are being recommended for use across their product range.
Both Exxon Mobil and Petro-Canada, to name just two oil companies, are suppliers to Honda and Toyota and make a number of their "house brand" oils. They both make quality 0W-20 grades but they don't meet the OEM requirements for their 0W-20. And one of those requirements is a very low start-up viscosity while retaining a high viscosity at operating temperature; which translates into a 200 plus VI.
Obviously, Honda and Toyota believe their 0W-20 oil formulations are better than what else is available in the market place.
I for one am not prepared to bet against the engineering capabilities of Honda and Toyota.

Honda and Toyota have raised the 0W-20 grade lubrication bar, and I believe it's just a matter of time before other formulators like RL take up the challenge. RL did it with their relatively new 0W-40 which has a higher VI (197) than M1's 0W-40 (186). I'm sure they'll improve the relatively low 166 VI of their 0W-20 in the not too distant future.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And one of those requirements is a very low start-up viscosity while retaining a high viscosity at operating temperature; which translates into a 200 plus VI.


The holy grail of PCMO
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