BMW M3 calls for 10w-60 - what to use?

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Doug

You're often more direct about not arguing with the manufacturer's engine department when someone asks questions about engine oils, in particular about Castrol's mid-90's vintage RS 10w-60, now marketed as TWS and Edge.

In other news, Mobil has removed the 0w-40 recommendation on the Mobil1.com website for the new S65 engine. It was up for a while, but it's gone now. Now the site just says they don't have an oil that complies with the manufacturer's recommendations, or words to that effect.
 
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I just sent off a sample of Motul 300V 5W40 oil, drained from my Z4M with S54 motor. I ran the oil for around 5100mi, no make up oil, mostly highway and canyon runs.

I'll post the result as soon as Blackstone e-mail me back.
 
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If bmw uses 10W60 as a bandaid, I bet you that AMG improved SLR engine uses 5W50 as a bandaid as well, cause most AMG vehicle only require M1 0W40.
My cousin's 09 M3 runs M1 5W50 (stock calls for 10W60) as well as a 02' M5 runs 5W50 (stock filler cap calls for 5W30 only) with no problem. The 02' M5 burns 5W30 very quickly and it's down 1 quart per 1000 km with just city driving.
However, I'd tried M1 5W50 on my MB 4.3L AMG engine and it's a bit sluggish. It ran fine with 4 quarts of 5W50 + 4 quarts of 5W30.
 
I use Redline 10w-40 and 5w-30 in my 08 M3 without issue, analysis looks trouble free. The car makes over 400 at the wheels. On the dyno, I made 30+ more horsepower with 5w-30 over the Castrol 10w-60. Redline admits in their tech paper on their website that M customers use the 5w-30 without issue.....for many years now. I beat the car like you would have to see to believe. No problems. I even had Castrol Edge 5w-30 which is very thin in there for 6000 miles, report looked average, no issue at all. Great car, great engine.... Can't wait for a supercharger.....
 
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
I just sent off a sample of Motul 300V 5W40 oil, drained from my Z4M with S54 motor. I ran the oil for around 5100mi, no make up oil, mostly highway and canyon runs.

I'll post the result as soon as Blackstone e-mail me back.


Beautiful car you have there....any mods?
 
Originally Posted By: bwco
If bmw uses 10W60 as a bandaid, I bet you that AMG improved SLR engine uses 5W50 as a bandaid as well, cause most AMG vehicle only require M1 0W40.



I'm not sure that most of the AMG offerings run rev limiters as high as the BMW S engines.

When the S54s first started spinning rod bearings the first fix was the lower the rev limiter from 8500 to 8200 (or something like that, IIRC) and that seemed to eliminate the issue.
 
I have a GruppeM air intake installed in my Z4M, and the rev limit is 8000, not 8200 nor 8500.

johnbottilaw, do you have the oil report that you can share with M community? I always get blasted at other BMW forums when I say I don't use 10W60 in my S54 motor.
 
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Redline makes a 10W-60.

I'd bet that Amsoil Racing SAE 60 would work in this application - it actually spec's out like a 20W-60.....
 
Originally Posted By: johnbottilaw
I use Redline 10w-40 and 5w-30 in my 08 M3 without issue, analysis looks trouble free. The car makes over 400 at the wheels. On the dyno, I made 30+ more horsepower with 5w-30 over the Castrol 10w-60. Redline admits in their tech paper on their website that M customers use the 5w-30 without issue.....for many years now. I beat the car like you would have to see to believe. No problems. I even had Castrol Edge 5w-30 which is very thin in there for 6000 miles, report looked average, no issue at all. Great car, great engine.... Can't wait for a supercharger.....


30+ hp from switching oil weights and brands, huh? What were the dyno conditions?
 
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
I have a GruppeM air intake installed in my Z4M, and the rev limit is 8000, not 8200 nor 8500.



I recall, at the time, that an article highlighted that the S54 installed in different vehicles had slightly different specs (redline varied, as did the air intake path in one application which altered the max power output and/or the RPM at which the peak occurred).
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: johnbottilaw
I use Redline 10w-40 and 5w-30 in my 08 M3 without issue, analysis looks trouble free. The car makes over 400 at the wheels. On the dyno, I made 30+ more horsepower with 5w-30 over the Castrol 10w-60. Redline admits in their tech paper on their website that M customers use the 5w-30 without issue.....for many years now. I beat the car like you would have to see to believe. No problems. I even had Castrol Edge 5w-30 which is very thin in there for 6000 miles, report looked average, no issue at all. Great car, great engine.... Can't wait for a supercharger.....


30+ hp from switching oil weights and brands, huh? What were the dyno conditions?


2% per grade, do the math, ambient temps were within 1-2 degrees of each other. I'm surprised you would be surprised. This is nothing new.
 
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
I have a GruppeM air intake installed in my Z4M, and the rev limit is 8000, not 8200 nor 8500.

johnbottilaw, do you have the oil report that you can share with M community? I always get blasted at other BMW forums when I say I don't use 10W60 in my S54 motor.


I have been admonished in the past for sharing proprietary info., and choose to share nothing from here on out. The animals on the M forums don't subscribe to common sense anyways. They are worse than the savages on the Evo forums.
 
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
I have a GruppeM air intake installed in my Z4M, and the rev limit is 8000, not 8200 nor 8500.

johnbottilaw, do you have the oil report that you can share with M community? I always get blasted at other BMW forums when I say I don't use 10W60 in my S54 motor.


Wow, if you ever get the opportunity to show us a pic, please do!!! I heard that the Z4m was mild do to the gearing. Dinan offers a swap out that really makes these things rip apparently.
 
here it is~

gruppem_intake.JPG
 
Hi,
jaj - You said this;
"You're often more direct about not arguing with the manufacturer's engine department when someone asks questions about engine oils, in particular about Castrol's mid-90's vintage RS 10w-60, now marketed as TWS and Edge."

In this case the specific M3 "blip" on BMW's screen was a very unusual one. From around 1990 BMW were recommending SAE30 synthetics then as I recall - even in their motorbikes!

BMW also had a great number of technical issues with high sulfur fuel at around the same time IIRC. This was costly for them too

We have moved on during the last 10-12 years and our lubricants are now much better. When Mobil and Castrol both recommend similar viscosities today for this engine family it is about all we can judge it from. BMW may have issued updated TISBs on the subject - I have no access to these

If I was to race one of these engines in long distance events it would be on Castrol's 10W-60!

And yes Castrol's excellent 10W-60 was a "baby" of mine since 1978-79 - then, as "Formula R Synthetic" 15W-50. So I have a history with this great lubricant that goes back thirty years - it was my main lubricant until 1996! However time moves on and other than for racing I can't see a need for it except for some very specific applications - and engine families

It is interesting to note that "Edge Racing 10W-60" was the most common lubricant container I saw at the Nurburgring! One Audi Team Manager said "we only use it to maintain oil pressure"!
 
Doug

I tried to email you, but it bounced - new address, eh?

Fortunately, the internet knows everything and better still it remembers! I have a copy of the 2008 BMW approved oil list (TSB) for USA vehicles.

The evolution of the "M" vehicles is that starting with the E39 M5 with the 5 liter V8, BMW "M" selected Castrol RS (now TWS) 10w-60 for the engine. For some reason, a year after the intro they switched to 5w-30 for that car. Then came the 2000 intro of the E46 M3 with the S54 engine. It arrived with 5w-30 but was switched to 10w-60 when the bearing problems surfaced. That was the end of 5w-30 in "M" cars.

To quote from the aformentioned TSB:

"The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoine engines, at the present time.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, or Castrol Formula RS SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil (BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)"

Clearly, TWS 10w-60 is the warranty-approved product for new "M" cars these days. Not that other oils won't work, just don't blow your motor up and expect BMW to fix it at their expense.

What's truly amazing is the number of people that feel that because TWS is OEM-approved and supplied by dealers that it's no good. Quite the opposite is true, as evidenced by your comments about the bottles in the paddock at the Nurburgring.
 
Hi,
jaj - Please send me a PM and I'll provide my email address

Thanks for your TSB update - good stuff!

It is strange that both Castrol and Mobil have different thoughts here. 10W-60 is an "off the shelf" reasonably priced synthetic here. It always has been. I will "chat" to my contacts at both places and see what they have to say

Yes the TWS, RS or Edge Racing 10W-60 is some stuff - it has been for 30 odd years!

It has a formidable and very long race history WW - it won at LeMans, the WSCC and in F1 - BMW and Porsche used it as their race oil. It was used by ZF as a FF too. I could not believe how common the containers were at the Nurburgring - the car Brands using it were a great mixture including within the Clio series

However to all and sundry it was considered a "race oil" - now I wonder if the one or two hot Bimmers that passed me on the Nordschleife were on it..................? Was that the reason.............?

It is one of the greatest lubricants ever developed by Castrol. I thought BP would "axe" it!

In light of the TSB I would be using it in my BMW if it had one of those engine families! BMW may know more that they disclose - as always!!
 
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