Yeah that guy really bothers me! Every time I try to look up something meaningful over there I see his constant badgering/ho'ing. Nice violation of their dealer policies too by posting odd price combinations...[censored]!
Deposit formation of dino vs. PAO vs. POE
- Thread starter saaber1
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MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Are these formulated lubricants, or just base oils being dumped on the plate? I have seen this pic before, and the POA lube suprised me.
I assume base ois with no additives, but the next questions are:
1. Are those base oils of the same viscosity?
2. It looks like these oils are in a test tube, and not on a hot plate?
Optimized additives mean you tinker with the additive package until you find the best formulation combined with the base oil.
Generally speaking, and if you have a large budget, you work with the additive company to get an additive mix that plays well (tests well) with your base oil mix.
I prefer to make my own additive package to optimize the oil.
Are these formulated lubricants, or just base oils being dumped on the plate? I have seen this pic before, and the POA lube suprised me.
I assume base ois with no additives, but the next questions are:
1. Are those base oils of the same viscosity?
2. It looks like these oils are in a test tube, and not on a hot plate?
Optimized additives mean you tinker with the additive package until you find the best formulation combined with the base oil.
Generally speaking, and if you have a large budget, you work with the additive company to get an additive mix that plays well (tests well) with your base oil mix.
I prefer to make my own additive package to optimize the oil.
Here's another panel coker example with Petro-canada's Compro XL-S Compressor Fluid, comparing P-C's Group III based fluid vs 3 PAO based fluids …
Quote:
Compro XL-S.pdf
With equal or better resistance to thermal and oxidative breakdown versus leading PAO synthetic based fluids, COMPRO provides up to 8,000 hours or one year of continuous worry free service and can significantly reduce compressor operating costs.
Quote:
Compro XL-S.pdf
With equal or better resistance to thermal and oxidative breakdown versus leading PAO synthetic based fluids, COMPRO provides up to 8,000 hours or one year of continuous worry free service and can significantly reduce compressor operating costs.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
It is good to see the differences though...
piston crown and rings will, turbo as well
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
It is good to see the differences though...
piston crown and rings will, turbo as well
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Originally Posted By: saaber1
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
I know VW says in their patent that the intake valves reach 380 degrees C on the 2.0FSI if run for 20 minutes at 3000 rpm at full load? (found by zappergli on vwvortex).
This video shows the exhaust side of a turbocharger reaches 1600F/ 900 celcius (Yowza!) (posted by someone on BITOG earlier but I can't remember who) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7jVYTmql2Y&feature=related
So I would guess at least the oil reaching the turbo would be that hot but I dunno about other places.
very interesting stuff..so this might be a solution for those vw/audi intake valve deposits..
you guys need to run your cars on dyno with engine speed >3000rpm at full load for 20 min and carbon will burn off
or even better take a car to the racetrack
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
I know VW says in their patent that the intake valves reach 380 degrees C on the 2.0FSI if run for 20 minutes at 3000 rpm at full load? (found by zappergli on vwvortex).
This video shows the exhaust side of a turbocharger reaches 1600F/ 900 celcius (Yowza!) (posted by someone on BITOG earlier but I can't remember who) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7jVYTmql2Y&feature=related
So I would guess at least the oil reaching the turbo would be that hot but I dunno about other places.
very interesting stuff..so this might be a solution for those vw/audi intake valve deposits..
you guys need to run your cars on dyno with engine speed >3000rpm at full load for 20 min and carbon will burn off
or even better take a car to the racetrack
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Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
very interesting stuff..so this might be a solution for those vw/audi intake valve deposits..
"not bloody likely" ha ha. Too many examples of valve deposits over too many engines. Some of those must have been operated at this fairly sedate criteria (sedate for fast/performance cars I mean).
Personally this looks more to me like they are saying, "we know about this problem, but it's really not going to be an issue because..." But it is a very widespread issue.
The italian tuneup could help but won't stop the problem IMO. The only way to effectively deal with the problem is to eliminate the cause (pcv vapors getting to intake valves) through a pcv bypass (such as to atmosphere or to exhaust) IMO.
very interesting stuff..so this might be a solution for those vw/audi intake valve deposits..
"not bloody likely" ha ha. Too many examples of valve deposits over too many engines. Some of those must have been operated at this fairly sedate criteria (sedate for fast/performance cars I mean).
Personally this looks more to me like they are saying, "we know about this problem, but it's really not going to be an issue because..." But it is a very widespread issue.
The italian tuneup could help but won't stop the problem IMO. The only way to effectively deal with the problem is to eliminate the cause (pcv vapors getting to intake valves) through a pcv bypass (such as to atmosphere or to exhaust) IMO.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
2. It looks like these oils are in a test tube, and not on a hot plate?
It looks to me like that is the metal "tip" where the oil drips off and then it is recirculated (imagine an oil "drop" at the bottom of the "tip" and look at the deposits that formed on the outside edge of the "drop").
2. It looks like these oils are in a test tube, and not on a hot plate?
It looks to me like that is the metal "tip" where the oil drips off and then it is recirculated (imagine an oil "drop" at the bottom of the "tip" and look at the deposits that formed on the outside edge of the "drop").
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
The oil does not come close to touching any areas that hot. It feeds the center section which even though I've had my turbine side glowing bright orange, the center section has never glowed. It's also got the compressor on the other side to help it out. It's when the engine is shut down and the oil and air stop flowing that the heat migrates into the center section that you have problems. Not to mention many newer setups use water cooled centers.
I agree, it's just an illustration of how hot things get. I never trust marketing media. It is interesting though when you look at the bearing after the run that the exhaust side of the bearing (presumed) is the one with the deposits while the inside has none for the conventional oil. It is possible that this demo was run a long time to make those deposits or that it is not a water cooled turbo, like the old dodge POS turbos.
The oil does not come close to touching any areas that hot. It feeds the center section which even though I've had my turbine side glowing bright orange, the center section has never glowed. It's also got the compressor on the other side to help it out. It's when the engine is shut down and the oil and air stop flowing that the heat migrates into the center section that you have problems. Not to mention many newer setups use water cooled centers.
I agree, it's just an illustration of how hot things get. I never trust marketing media. It is interesting though when you look at the bearing after the run that the exhaust side of the bearing (presumed) is the one with the deposits while the inside has none for the conventional oil. It is possible that this demo was run a long time to make those deposits or that it is not a water cooled turbo, like the old dodge POS turbos.
Looks like Croda adopted a coking test very similar to one used by Hatco for decades. The original method was developed by Exxon in the 1970s for jet engine lubricants, and Hatco adopted it in the 1980s with Exxon's permission. Hatco used it for aviation and industrial lubricants where it correlated well with field observations. It was used for finished lubricants, not pure base oils. PAO based oils were consistently dirtier in this test due to their lack of self-cleaning polarity.
This test was discussed here in an earlier thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=63238&Number=803300#Post803300
Tom NJ
This test was discussed here in an earlier thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=63238&Number=803300#Post803300
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
It is good to see the differences though...
yeah right?? every thing else would fail first anyway.
Just playing the Devil's advocate here... But does your average engine need this protection? Will they ever see 275 degree heat?
It is good to see the differences though...
yeah right?? every thing else would fail first anyway.
MolaKule
Staff member
Thanks Tom, that clears some things up.
The previous link shows those oils were ISO 100 viscosities and this coker plate is indeed pointed like a test tube.
I had seen some modified oxidant/volatility tests in which the lube was heated and oxygenated on a plate inside a chamber for a number of hours, and all of the resulting material was poured back into a test tube for analysis and scoping.
Maybe the viscosity was cut off from the top of the picture.
The previous link shows those oils were ISO 100 viscosities and this coker plate is indeed pointed like a test tube.
I had seen some modified oxidant/volatility tests in which the lube was heated and oxygenated on a plate inside a chamber for a number of hours, and all of the resulting material was poured back into a test tube for analysis and scoping.
Maybe the viscosity was cut off from the top of the picture.
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I think the Croda picture was probably intended just to demonstrate the different coking tendencies of the various base oils, and therefore gives little detail.
We generally used our panel coker rig for very high temperature oils like chain lubes and jet turbine oils, and various mil-spec and ASTM bulk oxidation tests for other oils.
Tom NJ
We generally used our panel coker rig for very high temperature oils like chain lubes and jet turbine oils, and various mil-spec and ASTM bulk oxidation tests for other oils.
Tom NJ
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