The best oil for my bike?

[heavyhitter]

Azsynthetic,
1.Rotella T is a UNIVERSAL oil, look that word up then apply to to this context. Rotella is not a diesel only oil.

2. What is your definition of a "motorcycle oil". All that Honda, Kawasaki, Suzui, and Yamaha care about is that it meets JASO MA standards. Rotella T meets those standards.

3. Funny that how Rotella T utterly out performs in every way 3 motocycle oils. Rotella T BEATS Honda GN4! BEATS Yamalube, BEATS Valvoline Motorcycle! BEATS Valvoline ATV! This has been proven in independent studies AND here on this board though VOA's and UOA's.

4. You are a marketing teams dream! You believe ONLY what manufatures and what race teams tell you. Buy a Yamaha it will recommend using Yamalube, buy a Honda it will recommend Honda oil buy a Harley it will recommend HD oil. Why? So the company makes more money off you after the point of the sale. By the way most if not all manuals will recommend a oil that meets a certain classification ie: SF, SG etc. HDEO meets that. Harley does say that HDEO is recommended for oil if HD brand is not availible.

5. You do not back up any of your claims with any fact whatsoever, you just say, "this is not what racers use" Do you know what they use? Are you pouring it in every engine? For all you know the crank case could be filled with [censored] and vinegar.

6. I would bet that any major brand HDEO oil is equal to or better than any major brand conventional "motorcycle" oils.

7. No one on here claims to be an expert. What I see is peoples testimonies of real life experiences and factual reports from "experts" in the labs placed here in black and white for use to look at and compare.

8. You keep using the term "racers" Racers of what? GP? Flattrack? Motocross? Drag? I DO know racers that run HDEO oils for enduro's and its proven for them.

9. Do you even own a bike?

 

[heavyhitter]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Shell as a maker of Rotella does not recommend it for motorcycle then why does anyone think they know better than Shell?


Wrong, they do and have passed JASO MA.

 

[heavyhitter]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


I don't take advises from joe blow with a handful of bikes and some backyard mechanic skill, especially from the internet. I listen to oil manufacturers and bike makers


Well thats your loss, because people with real life expreiences usually have something insightful to share and learn from.

Here you make your claim to being a spoon fed marketing sheep.
If you belive all of the marketing hype, I truely pity you.

 

[TucsonDon]

Going all the way back to the original question:

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
I just bought a nice 2003 honda shadow ace VT750CDB from my step dad and it has 10,859 miles on it.

Okay, the facts:

• Used bike
• V-twin water cooled design
• Out of warranty

And qualitative analysis:

• Nice bike, but certainly not a performance bike.
• To the extent it will be "raced," the racing would be non-professional and minimally stressful to the engine and bike design.

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
I was wondering what would you guys suggest on which oil would be best for the bike.
This is the core of the question -- a request for general recommendations about oil for that bike.

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
The owners manual says to use Honda GN4 10w-40 without moly. I went to the honda shop and got a Honda filter and 3 quarts of the GN4 10w-40 oil. This is what they suggested.
Not surprising. But using their oil is not a requirement. Even they would say that if pressed to be honest.

I believe we would find general consensus on this site that Honda's GN4 is decent oil, but certainly not superior in any way.

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
I was going to get the Honda HP4 Synthetic blend without moly and they suggested just the GN4 because something about the clutch.
I can't imagine what they would be talking about with regard to the HP4 Synthetic blend without moly and clutch issues.

I'm sure it would have worked just fine, though you would have paid an unnecessary premium for the oil.

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
I been doing alot of reading on the used oil testing section but its all chinese to me I dont know anything about it.
I understand. I've made this oil thing somewhat of a hobby and even I'll confess that a good deal of this is unclear to me.

Originally Posted By: Honda2003
I already done the oil change but I would like to here some input from all of you for the next time because the GN4 was kinda steep on price. Thanks!
From this we can determine that price is a consideration; therefore, you are seeking not only good oil for the bike, but oil that has a good price/performance ratio.

This is where the "motorcycle specific" oils generally fall from consideration. Not because they are bad oil, but because they tend to carry a price premium.

So the central question is -- for what you're doing with the bike, is the price premium on motorcycle specific oils worth it to you.

Based on your original post, we can assume the answer is "no." Otherwise you would not be pushing back on GN4, which by comparison to other "motorcycle specific" oils is not that expensive.

When price/performance is the consideration, the discussion most often falls back to HDEOs -- and the "D" stands for "Duty," not "Diesel."

Brands most commonly cited -- Rotella T, Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo.

Then there is the "conventional" vs. "synthetic" argument. This is where opinions vary. I will offer mine:

• For the common HDEOs, either conventional or synthetic is very good oil ... you really can't go wrong with either.
• For what it's worth, I run the conventional Rotella 15W-40 in my 2007 Goldwing in Tucson year round. Used Oil Analysis shows good engine wear numbers.
• Primary advantages of synthetic oils are: better low-temperature flow properties; slightly better protection for very high operating temperature conditions; and the potential for extended oil change intervals.
• If I lived in a colder climate where I was starting my Goldwing in temperatures down in the teens, I'd give serious consideration to the synthetic Rotella. As is, I do not see it as offering enough advantage over the conventional to make it worth the price.

Bottom line -- you will not go wrong with an HDEO; many on this site and elsewhere use them with very good results. If you are at all concerned, then pay the premium and get a motorcycle specific oil. The extra cost can be considered "sleep easy" insurance. That's okay ... it's a very common thing among motorcycle owners.

 

[boraticus]

Well folks, I think that readers of this thread looking for genuine unbiased oil advice will have the common sense to see that the balance of the argument strongly supports the use of HDEOs.

Despite our honest intent to guide novices toward inexpensive yet very suitable products, there will alway be those who have the blinders on and will vehemently argue against it. I have a personal friend that I swear must have an "Amzoil Only" chip in his head. I might also add that he has a number of other disorders to go along with his failure to recognize the facts. He's obsessive compulsive and has a distinct fear of the unknown..... Every turn in life is a challenge. Sad but true.

It's unbelievable how certain personalities can be completely and irreversibly mind controlled. That's how cults are created. Why do you think guys like Jim Jones can get close to 1000 of his flock to drink cyanide laced Kool-aid?

Society will always produce personalities that cannot and will not deviate from what they believe. The best argument in the world will not change their minds because in their minds, they are absolutely correct and cannot accept the slightest possibility that they might just be wrong.

We've made our point I believe. Those who can think on their own will weigh the information provided and buy the product that is supported by the best show of facts and evidence. The others, well, they'll continue to donate to the charitable oil company of their choice secure in the knowledge that they know more than than the rest of the world.

 

[02zx9r]

Originally Posted By: Redline955
The guy doing the stoppie slowing for the turn was/is American Ben Spies, on a Yamaha R1. A great rider. So, is Mobil 1 15/50 Auto a good oil to use in my relatively low revving speed Triple? It hasn't blown up yet, and seems to be fine.


Yes M1 15W50 will be a good choice to run in your bike.

Many people used to run the older Red cap M1 15W50 with no issues. They realized that they can get the same oil and performance without buying the oil bottle with a cycle on the front, for a cheaper price

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: TucsonDon
Go to http://www.rotella.com.

Click on the "Ask our expert" link.

Click on "Submit a Question"

Click on "FAQ by Topic"

Select "Motorcycles" topic.

Read Shell recommending Rotella for motorcycles.

I'll preempt the counter-argument ... yes, I know they are not saying it is "superior to motorcycle oil." Yes, I know they are not citing specific usage in world class racing. Yes, I know they do not admit to showing up in MotoGP winner circles.

But they do recommend Rotella for motorcycles.

And by the way, I did not label you an Amsoil rep. I simply pointed out the similarity between your screen name and the Amsoil site with the exact same name, and asked if it was coincidence.

I have never -- not here, not anywhere -- labeled anyone a "wannabe" racer, or a "joe blow with a handful of bikes and some backyard mechanic skill."


So, what was your purpose of linking me with an amsoil site? Did you check the archive and correct yourselves? Did you stop all the wannabe racers from jumping on your bandwagon?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then I call it a duck. Only a joe blow (or high school kids) would believe that things are proven on the internet and not in the lab or on the race track.

BTW, I agree with most of your qualitative and quantitative analysis. Nevertheless, Shell does not recommend Rotella as the best for motorcycles. They recommend their own line of motorcycle oil that is not "Rotella with a motorcycle picture on the bottle and a higher price tag".

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: heavyhitter
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


I don't take advises from joe blow with a handful of bikes and some backyard mechanic skill, especially from the internet. I listen to oil manufacturers and bike makers


Well thats your loss, because people with real life expreiences usually have something insightful to share and learn from.

Here you make your claim to being a spoon fed marketing sheep.
If you belive all of the marketing hype, I truely pity you.


If you choose to believe every thing you see on the internet then you fit the joe blow description. I prefer manufacturer data and race track results. Unlike you, I make no claim in any thing on the internet. I point out the facts from oil/bike manufacturers whereas all you got is hearsay from the internet. The topic is "best oil for bike" and not the cheapest or most economical or Rotella oil for bike. If you have better proof than the oil manufacturers then show me.

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Shell does not recommend Rotella as the best for motorcycles.

I'll bite ... in your opinion, what is the best oil for motorcycles?

• Specific conditions in a motorcycle engine that calls for a specific quality of oil: _________________________
• Specific brand: _________________________
• Technical qualities of oil that make it the "best": _________________________
• Tests and analysis results that prove it's the "best": _________________________
• Conventional or synthetic, and why: _________________________
• Ideal viscosity, and why: _________________________

I'm very sincere with those questions. You obviously have an opinion on this, and I'm interested in reading what it is.

In particular, I'll be interested in reading how you reconcile the fact that within the set of "motorcycle specific oils" there is a wide range of qualities and performance results. So clearly "the best" is not merely that the manufacturer labels it as "for motorcycles." For example, I doubt very much that you'd agree that Honda GN4 is suitable for racing.

So ... please share your view on this.

 

[heavyhitter]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: heavyhitter
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


I don't take advises from joe blow with a handful of bikes and some backyard mechanic skill, especially from the internet. I listen to oil manufacturers and bike makers


Well thats your loss, because people with real life expreiences usually have something insightful to share and learn from.

Here you make your claim to being a spoon fed marketing sheep.
If you belive all of the marketing hype, I truely pity you.


If you choose to believe every thing you see on the internet then you fit the joe blow description. I prefer manufacturer data and race track results. Unlike you, I make no claim in any thing on the internet. I point out the facts from oil/bike manufacturers whereas all you got is hearsay from the internet. The topic is "best oil for bike" and not the cheapest or most economical or Rotella oil for bike. If you have better proof than the oil manufacturers then show me.


So are you and above average joe?

You keep say you have facts... where are these so called facts, I dont see you producing anything.

In your opinion what is the BEST?

What is it that I am "claiming"? And what are you not claiming.

You never even answered if you had a bike. Thus I think that your comments are based only on commercials and advertisements you read.

I never claimed to be an expert but I can tell you that based on MANY peoples personal experiences including mine and TESTED samples of UOA and VOA's this is concrete PROOF that HDEO oil is is not only a good oil for bikes but surpass several "motocycle specific" oils.

My FACTS are based on this:

VOA and UOA of Roetlla T in 3 bike/ATV applications

1. Yamalube: Foaming, excessive foaming in my sump. The VOA of this oil revealed very weak add packages and lack luster numbers.
The temp on 1 ATV and 2 bikes ran warmer.
Verdict: Rotella T did not foam in sump. VOA revealed much better add package. 1 bike and ATV ran cooler in the same conditions with same ambient air temps. (the 2nd bike I sold thus I cannot comfirm this) Rotella 1/3 the price.

2. Valvoline Motocycle: The VOA of this revealed a weak add pack, just alittle better than Yammalube. My street bike had clucth issues with this oil 2x. I used my bike and just kept the oil in for 1000 miles. Dumped the oil, used Rotella, clucth issues went away. I still had Valvoline oil left so I figured I would try it again when I changed the Rotella. The clucth issue's came back immediately. I dumped the oil that day. 2 ATV's ran warmer with Valvoline (granted it was 10w40 vs 15w40)
UOA on the Valvoline shows that it sheard out of grade in my dirtbike after 9 hours of use.
Verdict: Rotella T gave better clutch performance in my street bike than Valvoline (tested 2x). Rotella has better VOA results than Valvoline. Rotella ran cooler in ATVS than Valvoline (this could be suspect due to 10w40 vs 15w40). The UOA with Rotella was much better than the UOA with Valvoline on the dirtbike. Rotella 1/2 the cost.

3. Honda Pro GN4: VOA of this oil is inferrior to Rotella T based on VOA reports on this forum. (I have not tested this oil only looked at the reports from Blackstone labs).

These are my REAL WORLD experiences. I have about $260 in oil analysis through BlackStone labs.

Plainly put Rotella is superior to the "motocycle oils" I have tried. Not only was Rotella better it cost 1/3 -1/2 the price.

Granted I have not tried fully synthetic ELF, Motul, Repsol or any of the other "Hollywood" oils but I do not need to. The longest OCI on my ATV and motorycle oil is 2k. The shortest is 10 hours. It would be a waste of money for such a short OCI for a $12+ quart of oil.

This will be my last response to you because you drank the kool-aid and there is no changing your mind. This long reply is more for the others on this forum that would like to be some meat behind the argument than just some hoopla that "race teams do this" "EOM does this". Just because Michale Jordan wears Nike's does that mean it is the best shoe for your feet? You say I coose to believe everything on the internet that is simply not true, however I will argue that you apear to believe every magazine add and maketing campagne you see. I have no issue with you having a different opion on this matter however do not back up your statements and give me the impressiosn you post just to antagonize and close threads. This is soley based on every comment you make. Your arguement is vague and hollow at best.

Marketing is the lure for profit. And I feel you took hook, line and sinker.

 

[brian12]

Belray is the best oil I've used. If your looking for something at a bargain price try an HDEO.

 

[boraticus]

By the way, race teams almost entirely use the oil that they advertise for. Can't see the sense of Shell advertising heavy duty oil at a GP race. Wrong venue.

Sooooo, does one believe the racer's sponsors or believe the real world experiences and oil analysis data that numerous down to earth people provide? I'm staying with the real world folks. After all, that's where I live.

I'll pass on the kool-aid, thanks.

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: heavyhitter
Just because Michale Jordan wears Nike's does that mean it is the best shoe for your feet?

Speaking of Nike -- I had heard and read that Tiger Woods would be even better than he is if he could use something other than Nike clubs and woods. Sponsorship dictates behavior.

Also ... Shell Motorcycle Oil ... I assume that's Shell Motosport? To the best of my knowledge, that's not offered for general retail here in the United States. To the best of my knowledge, Shell offers no "motorcycle specific" oil here in the United States.

 

[heavyhitter]

Eh, I just read my post my typing was a atrocious. Won't let me edit it. Sorry to all for the Hooked on Phonic's lesson.

 

[Redline955]

I remember the 70's when there were no synthetics, or liquid cooled bikes, and we had no idea what oil change intervals were, and we had bikes that ran for 30,000 + miles without any problems! With all the improvements, my Triumph should outlast me, FFS!

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: Redline955
I remember the 70's when there were no synthetics, or liquid cooled bikes, and we had no idea what oil change intervals were, and we had bikes that ran for 30,000 + miles without any problems! With all the improvements, my Triumph should outlast me, FFS!


Good solid thinking. I've run old Suzuki air cooled ATVs for over twenty years using conventional oil (mostly Rotella 15W40). Never had a problem with the engines. Those machines were pounded pretty hard in the heat of summer, pulling through mud holes and climbing hills that were high and long. They were used hard and never faltered. I've since sold them to a couple of friends. They say all is still well. One was an '84 the other an '87. I also ran a 1981 Yamaha Seca 750 (dohc high performance in line air cooled four) and a BMW R100 (1000cc air cooled boxer twin) for several year with no problems. No synthetic in them either.

Personally, I think we, as modern technology consumers have become somewhat anal retentive about the fluids we use in our machines. Most of that comes from marketing hype and waaaaay toooo much information. The way I look at it, if I had machines that withstood well over 25 years of hard service using nothing but conventional oil, how much more usable engine life will synthetic oil use provide? Who keeps motorcycles for fifty years? Most of us don't. If we do, it's for nostalgic purposes rather than every day use.

To top it off, today's oils are quite a bit better than what we were using thirty years ago. Can't see any reason to use anything but a quality HDEO. Particularly when performance and price are as good as they are.

 

[FZ1]

You pick the oil but change the oil out in the Fall so it's fresh over the winter.

 

[Ken2]

There's moly, and then there's...moly.

You absolutely do not want an oil nor an oi additive with powdered molybdenum disulfide.

Schaeffer oils are known for having "Micron Moly®, a liquid soluble type of Moly," and Schaeffer says, "Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus Racing Oil SAE 20W-50 is recommended for use in all 4-cycle air-cooled or water-cooled motorcycle and ATV engines. Supreme 7000 Synthetic Racing Oil SAE 20W-50 can also used in those motorcycles that have a common sump for the engine and transmission." Ditto for their full syn 5W-50. The syn-blend has been working fine in my wet clutch motorcycles. My Suzuki owner's manual calls for 10W-40 (ugh) but says that 20W-50 is OK down to +14°F. Subjectively, when I put Schaeffer 20W-50 syn-blend into these used engines for my first oil change, the engine seems to run more freely, whatever that means...both the sound and the response seem freer. An engineer at the Schaeffer home office told me about some of the old Harleys that would temporarily seize up if shut down hot and wouldn't crank over to start until cool. With these oils they never got that tight and started hot every time.

Good recommendation for the 15W-40 or 5W-40 HDEOs, and I'd use any over any 10W-40, Honda brand included. While there's neither anything wrong nor anything great about Rotella, the new Conoco/Phillips/76/Kendall 15W-40 with their exclusive "Liquid Titanium" seems to actually cause a slight reduction in valve train wear and shows some deposition of titanium on wear points. I'm sure that in a short time the other oil makers will leapfrog ConocoPhillips with their new products to equal or better this one.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: TucsonDon

I'll bite ... in your opinion, what is the best oil for motorcycles?

In particular, I'll be interested in reading how you reconcile the fact that within the set of "motorcycle specific oils" there is a wide range of qualities and performance results. So clearly "the best" is not merely that the manufacturer labels it as "for motorcycles." For example, I doubt very much that you'd agree that Honda GN4 is suitable for racing.

So ... please share your view on this.


When looking at the "best" oil for motorcycle then one should not even think about cost nor oil that was not designed for the extreme operating environment of a motorcycle. The only true extreme testing environment for a motorcycle is on the race track. So, in my opinion and those in the winner circles the best oil for your bike is not dino oil or non-motorcycle oil or diesel oil, etc. Within the set of motorcycle specific oils there is a subset of ultra high performance oils that will pretty much handle anything any bike can dish out. These ultra high performance oils are the best oil for motorcycle. The question is then which oil in that subset is the best of the best? I do not know the answer to that question. I run BelRay and Silkolene in my street bike and RedLine in my race bike.

 

[TucsonDon]

Our individual perspectives are rotating around two different elements of this discussion. The original poster (Honda2003) used the word "best" but also expressed concern about the cost of oil.

So there's a bit on an internal contradiction within the original post. Let's break it out into two separate questions:

(1) What is the best oil -- regardless of cost?
(2) What oil is the best price/performer?

Your argument tends to focus on the first, my argument tends to focus on the second.

For the vast majority of riders out there -- including many amateur racers -- my assertion is many HDEOs would be fine as the riding styles very likely do not stress the oil all that much.

I would agree that for very high-end racing, a more specifically tuned oil may be just the margin needed to put one into the winner's circle.

I'm still curious ... I've looked at the VOAs for motorcycle specific oils and the VOAs for HDEOs, and I'm still wondering what components of the oil's engineering makes it "motorcycle specific" ... particularly for professional racing.

The key difference I see is the ZDDP ... the motorcycle specific oils are loaded with it; the HDEOs less so.

ZDDP is an anti-wear additive, not a performance element. How long do professional race teams plan on running an engine before doing a rebuild? My guess is not long enough to benefit from the additional ZDDP. For non-professional bike owners who don't do rebuilds then the extra ZDDP may be of some benefit.
(Though I'm personally skeptical. I've read enough from highly respected members of this forum that ZDDP is one of those things that has a diminishing return ... and too much actually hurts as it "crowds out" other additives and their intended purpose.)

I'm not a racer ... nor do I follow MotoGP closely. But my guess is the key element of a professional racing oil is a viscosity that's just barely enough to keep metal off metal, but not so much as to sap any horsepower; and the ability to resist shear for the length of one race.

The oils you listed you use are fine oils. The Honda dealership here in Tucson used to run BelRay in all the bikes they serviced. (Now it's GN4 ... my guess is Honda put pressure on them ... or cut them a deal on bulk GN4.)

I run Rotella 15W-40 in my Goldwing. I'll confess the Goldwing engine is a pussycat on oil. Still, UOAs here.