I didn't see anyone in that thread say any oil was shot at 1000 miles. I saw the mentioning of the M1 results at 1000 miles but that did not indicate it was shot. Did I miss some other data?
BMW N54 Twin Turbo
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Volvohead, that's why I said 5k miles "at most," and that he should be "okay" instead of "totally safe".
Honestly, Terry Dyson is a perfectionist. These engines have the potential to wear absolutely minimally, and that's what he's after. As strongly as I believe the factory oil and OCI are insufficient, I also trust that BMW didn't get it so horribly wrong that using a better oil at 1/3 the regular interval won't let the engine last long enough for all practical purposes. I fully respect other opinions and value judgments.
JAG, the comments that the oil was "shot" came from assessments that it had physically degraded to the point that it would form deposits and/or no longer protect properly (e.g. due to flash point depression, TAN, wear numbers per mile, etc.).
Honestly, Terry Dyson is a perfectionist. These engines have the potential to wear absolutely minimally, and that's what he's after. As strongly as I believe the factory oil and OCI are insufficient, I also trust that BMW didn't get it so horribly wrong that using a better oil at 1/3 the regular interval won't let the engine last long enough for all practical purposes. I fully respect other opinions and value judgments.
JAG, the comments that the oil was "shot" came from assessments that it had physically degraded to the point that it would form deposits and/or no longer protect properly (e.g. due to flash point depression, TAN, wear numbers per mile, etc.).
Direct from Terry in that thread:
"reb03, I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 280 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR. Amsoil has not been tested in this engine yet. Because Amsoil is a traditional based PAO I predict similar results to the M1 0w40 which is still one of few M1 products that can perform reasonably well. "
* * *
"RLI BIOSYN is the only oil I am seeing work well in DI RS4 or 2.0 Audi or the BMW bi turbo 3.0 I6 in the 335I. They both are killing every oil I used to recommend. I am not kidding and have no interest in promoting one oil over the other.
reb03, the M1 0w40 should not be run longer than 1000 miles to be safe."
I think when Terry Dyson recommends that an oil not be run longer 1,000 miles "to be safe", the inference is that it is not safe to run it longer than that. That meets any reasonable definition of "shot" that I'm aware of.
An oil with a 280F flash point and 2% fuel dilution is absolutely "shot" in a turbo environment, AFAIK.
BTW, I never said "shot". But I won't quibble over that.
"reb03, I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 280 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR. Amsoil has not been tested in this engine yet. Because Amsoil is a traditional based PAO I predict similar results to the M1 0w40 which is still one of few M1 products that can perform reasonably well. "
* * *
"RLI BIOSYN is the only oil I am seeing work well in DI RS4 or 2.0 Audi or the BMW bi turbo 3.0 I6 in the 335I. They both are killing every oil I used to recommend. I am not kidding and have no interest in promoting one oil over the other.
reb03, the M1 0w40 should not be run longer than 1000 miles to be safe."
I think when Terry Dyson recommends that an oil not be run longer 1,000 miles "to be safe", the inference is that it is not safe to run it longer than that. That meets any reasonable definition of "shot" that I'm aware of.
An oil with a 280F flash point and 2% fuel dilution is absolutely "shot" in a turbo environment, AFAIK.
BTW, I never said "shot". But I won't quibble over that.
Thanks for the collating the quotes. The 280F flash point and 2% fuel dilution were measured using different methods than Blackstone and some other labs use. It wouldn't have looked nearly as fuel-diluted if Blackstone tested it.
The viscosity of 12.1 cSt is pretty decent considering M1 0W-40 often shears that much in more pedestrian engines and with low fuel dilution.
The other comments: I do not believe them without verification from some other reputable source or seeing all of the data myself and agreeing.
The viscosity of 12.1 cSt is pretty decent considering M1 0W-40 often shears that much in more pedestrian engines and with low fuel dilution.
The other comments: I do not believe them without verification from some other reputable source or seeing all of the data myself and agreeing.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Volvohead, that's why I said 5k miles "at most," and that he should be "okay" instead of "totally safe".
Honestly, Terry Dyson is a perfectionist.
I dunno. The more I learn about this engine, the more inclined I am to pour a 50 weight into it and suffer the spool up consequences. I have a feeling that is what BMW is going to be telling owners at some point.
Terry may be a perfectionist. But his pedigree in these matters is impeccable, and his opinions carry very persuasive weight with me. I don't think he's after 0 ppm wear under all circumstances, but I'm sure he knows abnormal wear rates when he sees them.
Besides, I think when we're talking about ppm, I'd want a perfectionist reading the tea leaves!
Volvohead, that's why I said 5k miles "at most," and that he should be "okay" instead of "totally safe".
Honestly, Terry Dyson is a perfectionist.
I dunno. The more I learn about this engine, the more inclined I am to pour a 50 weight into it and suffer the spool up consequences. I have a feeling that is what BMW is going to be telling owners at some point.
Terry may be a perfectionist. But his pedigree in these matters is impeccable, and his opinions carry very persuasive weight with me. I don't think he's after 0 ppm wear under all circumstances, but I'm sure he knows abnormal wear rates when he sees them.
Besides, I think when we're talking about ppm, I'd want a perfectionist reading the tea leaves!
I think a good (not terribly risky) compromise is to do frequent oil changes with a LL-01 approved oil (in my case GC), to avoid warranty issues. I may even provide my own GC to BMW for the BMW-paid oil changes (they can provide the filter and labor) so as use the same oil all the time.
Perhaps BMW will change their oil recommandation on this engine, in which case I'd follow that during warranty period. If RLI shows far better resistance to fuel dilution and wear, and there are UOA's to prove it in the N54, I'll switch when the warranty is out. However, in light of these discussions on oil, I may buy an extended warranty... Seems like it may be a wise investment on these cars.
Perhaps BMW will change their oil recommandation on this engine, in which case I'd follow that during warranty period. If RLI shows far better resistance to fuel dilution and wear, and there are UOA's to prove it in the N54, I'll switch when the warranty is out. However, in light of these discussions on oil, I may buy an extended warranty... Seems like it may be a wise investment on these cars.
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
A little off topic but is the TT a factory option or is that a custom setup? Any pics of your engine compartment?
The N54 Twin Turbo is now standard fare on the 335 and 535.
Here's a photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N54
A little off topic but is the TT a factory option or is that a custom setup? Any pics of your engine compartment?
The N54 Twin Turbo is now standard fare on the 335 and 535.
Here's a photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N54
Here is a promising oil meeting LL-01: Pentonsin Pentospeed 0W-30 VS. http://www.pentosin.de/flexxtrader/data/...76317ede47c337a
There is only one decent place online to buy it that I've found. I can't post the link due to BITOG rules. There is one UOA of it in the UOA forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post988577
There is only one decent place online to buy it that I've found. I can't post the link due to BITOG rules. There is one UOA of it in the UOA forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post988577
Originally Posted By: JAG
The viscosity of 12.1 cSt is pretty decent considering M1 0W-40 often shears that much in more pedestrian engines and with low fuel dilution.
My 1998 M52B28 engine (1998 528i) sheared M1 0W40 to 12.4 or something in 6000km (not miles) with low fuel dilution. It's not all that demanding...
The viscosity of 12.1 cSt is pretty decent considering M1 0W-40 often shears that much in more pedestrian engines and with low fuel dilution.
My 1998 M52B28 engine (1998 528i) sheared M1 0W40 to 12.4 or something in 6000km (not miles) with low fuel dilution. It's not all that demanding...
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Just ran across this regarding improvements in UOA using RLI BioSyn in MiniCooper. Interesting: http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132532
The N54, as marvelous an engine as it is, lacks a dipstick. As a result, I don't see an easy way to take between-change oil samples for analysis short of either draining the oil (in which case I'd probably just change it anyway), or removing the oil filter cap and filter and taking oil from the filter housing (which may give false readings due to the fact that oil in the filter housing may be more contaminated with measurable metals).
Any suggestions here on how best to get good oil samples from these engines?
Any suggestions here on how best to get good oil samples from these engines?
jesbo, you could try installing a fumoto valve in place of the drain plug. That should make it easier to get small amounts of oil out. It's not ideal (ideal is taking a sample mid-stream), but it's something.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
jesbo, you could try installing a fumoto valve in place of the drain plug. That should make it easier to get small amounts of oil out. It's not ideal (ideal is taking a sample mid-stream), but it's something.
Good suggestion. Hadn't thought about a drain valve.
jesbo, you could try installing a fumoto valve in place of the drain plug. That should make it easier to get small amounts of oil out. It's not ideal (ideal is taking a sample mid-stream), but it's something.
Good suggestion. Hadn't thought about a drain valve.
I use the very messy mid-stream method: pull the drain plug, let the oil drain for a few seconds, take the sample, put the plug back in, and top off the oil. I can say for sure that if I had any less free time than I do, I would have bought a fumoto valve instead...
I have ordered the Fumoto valve with nipple so I can add a drain hose as well. This should make for neat/easy oil drainage. Getting the nipple version with a drain tube should make mid-stream sampling much easier, and I can always return the preliminary drain oil back to the engine if I use a clean drain pan. Thanks so much for the suggestion. I didn't even know these drain valves existed (though it does make perfect sense). And worth every penny of the very reasonable cost.
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Just wondering if anyone has tried the Pennzoil Platinum line in this engine.
Just an FYI for those interested in the N54. I just did a 491 mile trip (all interstate) with 3 passengers, luggage, and A/C running all the way... on 16.48 Gals of fuel. Thats 29.8 MPG. As I stated before, I'm running GC oil.
Thats incredible for a large 5 Series sedan.
Given this car seems so miserly on gasoline for a 300+ HP power plant, its hard to believe it could have fuel dilution issues. I still plan to do a UOA at 7500 miles (at which time the GC will have about 6 K miles).
Thats incredible for a large 5 Series sedan.
Given this car seems so miserly on gasoline for a 300+ HP power plant, its hard to believe it could have fuel dilution issues. I still plan to do a UOA at 7500 miles (at which time the GC will have about 6 K miles).
Originally Posted By: jesbo
Just an FYI for those interested in the N54. I just did a 491 mile trip (all interstate) with 3 passengers, luggage, and A/C running all the way... on 16.48 Gals of fuel. Thats 29.8 MPG. As I stated before, I'm running GC oil.
Thats incredible for a large 5 Series sedan.
Given this car seems so miserly on gasoline for a 300+ HP power plant, its hard to believe it could have fuel dilution issues. I still plan to do a UOA at 7500 miles (at which time the GC will have about 6 K miles).
Please keep us posted on the oil analysis! thanks
Just an FYI for those interested in the N54. I just did a 491 mile trip (all interstate) with 3 passengers, luggage, and A/C running all the way... on 16.48 Gals of fuel. Thats 29.8 MPG. As I stated before, I'm running GC oil.
Thats incredible for a large 5 Series sedan.
Given this car seems so miserly on gasoline for a 300+ HP power plant, its hard to believe it could have fuel dilution issues. I still plan to do a UOA at 7500 miles (at which time the GC will have about 6 K miles).
Please keep us posted on the oil analysis! thanks
bump!
what up????
what up????
Originally Posted By: 330indy
what up????
Well, here is jesbo's UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...438#Post1436438
I'm using M1 5W-40 TDT CJ-4 but only have 3K miles on the engine and have not done any UOAs. The engine is still breaking in and I'm changing the oil often. I know...boring!
what up????
Well, here is jesbo's UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...438#Post1436438
I'm using M1 5W-40 TDT CJ-4 but only have 3K miles on the engine and have not done any UOAs. The engine is still breaking in and I'm changing the oil often. I know...boring!
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