New H-D Twin Cam 96. What oil?

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Ok..here's a thought...Diesel motors have a hot turbo but they also hold 14/15 qts of oil. HD only has 3/4 qts. Now, run all day in 80° plus weather and then do a UOA......

Well, Harleys actually hold around 3/4 of a gallon, not 3/4 of a quart, but you're right on point. You can't really compare a big rig oil environment (even if we're talking turbocharging), and an oil capacity of several gallons, with the punishment an air cooled TC96 puts an oil through.


I should have said...3 to 4 quarts. depending on the model. I assumed that 3/4 qt meant the same thing. Sorry....

 

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
You guys might want to consider some math, with proper ratios.

Examples:
My old 3.0L Nissan Frontier gasser had 3.0L (182 cu in) v-6 with 3.5 qts oil. That's 52 cu in /qt of oil.
My wife's 3.0L gasser (182 cu in) v-6 has 4 qts oil. That's 45 cu in/qt.
My 6.6L Dmax turbo diesel (400 cu in) has 10 qts oil. That's 40 cu in/qt.
The HD 96TC has 96 cu in and 3 qts oil? That's 32 cu in/qt.

Overall, your HD Twin Cam has less engine displacement/qt than these three examples. In theory, you have the best scenario of these four examples. That kind of negates your argument of engine displacment vs. sump capacity.

So, ambienet air temp is your concern? OK - let me let you in on a little secret. Harley-Davidson has a few items in the parts catalog that might help you out. They have some fairly nice (and also very expensive) oil coolers. One cooler even has a thermostat in it, to help regulate the oil flow through the cooler. That way, it helps out when it's hot outside air temps, but diverts the oil around the cooler if it's cold outside air temps.

Hopefully, some of the HD faithfull can squeez a functional part (such as the cooler) into the budget, along with the 17 pieces of "Live to ride, ride to live" chrome ...


I might be wrong but..drain all the water out of those motors you mentioned and drive thru Branson, Mo in Ausust and see how long that oil will last. The oil coolers only work when your moving down the highway not when your sitting in traffic like Sturgis. But, it don't matter.. your bike, your money, your oil. Happy Trails..

 

[wileyE]

What grade oil did Harley Davidson run their durability testing on? anything else is just an experiment. Of course we all love to experiment and hate to buy oem oils. I think at least running the correct grade may be a good idea? harley used to have verbage in the manuals about using truck oil if HD oil wasn't available. But switch back as soon as possible.

 

[kballowe]

I'm a 20w-50 man, myself. Mobil 1 V-Twin or Amsoil - whichever is cheaper at the time. 5k OCIs. 10k for the transmission with Mobil 1 75W-90 and 5k for the primary with Rotella 15W-40.

We have 5+ years the mileage in the 30k+ range.

There are two in our group that use the Genuine Harley (dino) oil and change every 3k. Both of these bikes (TC88) have 100k+ miles. They're starting to seep a little around the jugs, but they still run just fine.

Rotella 15w-40 in my water-cooled bikes.

Opinions by Kevin - your mileage may vary.

 

[berlyn]

+1 for the cooler

 

[EagleFTE]

Since we have focused on temps a bit it is worth noting that many people have run their own "tests" on the impact of different oils on operating temps on the TC engine. Obviously the ones worth noting are those done by people that drive a consistent route in a consistent repeatable environment such as to and from work every day, same route, same traffic, same ambient temps. These guys know through every day repetition what the oil temps will be at given points on their ride. The previously mentioned GIV and GV oils have shown anwhere from 10 to 30 degree drops in operating temps over dino and even HD's Syn 3. I have no temp guages on my bikes so I can't attest but there are enough of these stories on the internet to show credibility (many are not even Amsoil testiments . Search "Harley oil temp synthetic" and you will find some of them. Just a bit of info worth looking at.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
I just did the first oil change in my new TC96 and put in the same thing I used in my Sportster: Brad Penn's Penn Grade 1 20w50 syn blend.
Some questions. How many miles do you intend to run this oil before the next change? If you were considering months rather than miles, how long would you leave it in? Last, from what distributor do you obtain the Brad Penn?

Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
M1 15W50 Silver cap. $5.00 if bought in the jug. Proven winner over the years even if it does have a lot of GIII now. Good additve package (1200 ppm ZDDP) and somehow SM rated.
HD specs for 20W50, is this a safe/good alternative? Do you change the filter every time you change the oil?

I ride about 2 to 2.5k a year on 08 Road King. Looking for some alternatives to the HD Dino from the dealer.

Very informative thread here!

 

[EagleFTE]

For the purposes of this dicussion and use in a Harley, 15w50 and 20w50 are interchangable as far as I'm concerned. The M1 15w50 has been used for decades in Harleys as well as air cooled Porche 911s and other applications due to its synthetic base and stout additive package. It used to be called red cap for the color of the cap on the bottle. It has always tested at the top in Full Throttle Magazine, American Iron Magazine, or even the Amsoil tests. At some point, about year 2000 Exxon Mobil decided to cash in on its popularity with Harley owners and came out with the Vtwin version in 20w50 for more $$. A bit more ZDDP and maybe some changes to the base formula. They dicontinued the old red cap for a while then reintroduced it in its current silver cap package due to customer feedback. I know people personally that have used 15W50 M1 exclusively in their HDs for well over a decade (same bike). A guy claims 600K miles on a gold wing using it. I would be surprised if anyone thought HD dino is as good as M1 15w50. Know one I know for sure. The advanges of the M1 15w50 are price per Qt. and availability. It can be found at most parts stores and all Walmarts. Walmart has the 5 Qt jugs for about $26.00

I change filter every oil change but that's me. For the kind of miles you are riding I would entertain once a year oil and filter changes as long as you continue riding a bit in the winter months.

 

[dnewton3]

Skunky - Where's the sense in suggesting the removal of coolant from a water-cooled engine? I didn't suggest you mill off the cooling fins from your air-cooled engine, did I? You made an incorrect implication regarding engine displacment vs. sump capacity, and now your answer is to sabotage the cooling system of an opposing view point? That's well reasoned ...

Most engines are designed for a proper operating environment, and then special considereations are taking into account to give the best compromise for most plausible conditions, by OEM design. Even with no forward speed, the cooling fins and supplemental oil cooler will produce some decent cooling effect from thermal convection and subsequent air movement. Is it ideal? No, it's not.

One of the worst things that any Harley rider can do is get his ride heat-soaked, and then sit and idle. It's probably the worst that can happen. But that is not UNIQUE to Harleys; the same can be said for other applications as well (BMW, MotoGuzzi, dual-sport bikes such as Honda's XR-650L, etc). At idle, the two most concerning items are the crank bearings and the con-rod bearings. The thinner the film strength of the lube oil, the greater the risk of that barrier failing. But, wanna take a guess as to the MAIN contributor of that film barrier failure? It's just as likely to fail from low pressure, as to viscosity drop. The engine can be just as easily damaged from an idle RPM that is too low, causing the oil pump to put inferior pressure out, as that of viscosity issues. Some HD faithful think it's "cool" (pardon the pun) to lope their engines down to 400 or 500 rpm, but that lowers the oil pressure to dangerous levels. I'd rather have a 15w-40 lube with a 900-1000 rpm idle, than a 50 grade oil and 500 rpm idle.

BTW, if you think it's any hotter in Branson, MO or Sturgis, SD than sitting in Indianapolis traffic at a dead standstill at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on 16th street after the Brickyard 400 NASCAR race in August, you don't know heat! NO ONE has a monopoly on "hot", sir.

All I'm saying to the OP is to give 15w-40 HDEO a try. I've had two Harley-Davidson bikes in my many years of bike ownership. I ran HDEO with no issues whatsoever. I've been stuck in traffic, just like everyone else upon occasion. I've done UOAs. I personally don't think that Harley 20w-50 oil is any better (and likely a lot worse) than a premium dino HDEO such as Delo, Delvac or Rotella.

But the only way to KNOW for sure is to do some UOAs in controlled experiments.

The OP asked for opinions, and he's gotten some. The rest is up to him.

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: PT1


+1 The TC96 is a heat generator for sure. I would only run high quality 20w50 or 20w60 synthetic. The Mobil One 15w50 will shear very quickly in that engine.


I've seen UAOs from probably five different HD enginges using the silver cap M1 15W50 and every one sheared to a 40 after 3k to 5k. A bit troubling and probably says something about "super syn". Not sure how much it hurt as the rest of the UOAs seemed ok. The M1 Vtwin tends to stay well in the 50 wt range, around 20 Cst @ 100C. It appears that the extra $4.00 or so buys more than just a picture of a motorcycle on the bottle. All that said there are not a lot of choices in the $5.00 / Qt and under range. My preferece on my newer TC is to run a better product for about $1.00 per week more cash as I throw at lest that much money into unimportant things each week.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
You guys might want to consider some math, with proper ratios.

Examples:
My old 3.0L Nissan Frontier gasser had 3.0L (182 cu in) v-6 with 3.5 qts oil. That's 52 cu in /qt of oil.
My wife's 3.0L gasser (182 cu in) v-6 has 4 qts oil. That's 45 cu in/qt.
My 6.6L Dmax turbo diesel (400 cu in) has 10 qts oil. That's 40 cu in/qt.
The HD 96TC has 96 cu in and 3 qts oil? That's 32 cu in/qt.

Overall, your HD Twin Cam has less engine displacement/qt than these three examples. In theory, you have the best scenario of these four examples. That kind of negates your argument of engine displacment vs. sump capacity.

So, ambienet air temp is your concern? OK - let me let you in on a little secret. Harley-Davidson has a few items in the parts catalog that might help you out. They have some fairly nice (and also very expensive) oil coolers. One cooler even has a thermostat in it, to help regulate the oil flow through the cooler. That way, it helps out when it's hot outside air temps, but diverts the oil around the cooler if it's cold outside air temps.

Hopefully, some of the HD faithfull can squeez a functional part (such as the cooler) into the budget, along with the 17 pieces of "Live to ride, ride to live" chrome ...


Sorry but GMAN is correct about the sump temps on a Harley...you are comparing apples to oranges. The reports coming back on the TC96 engines are seeing engine temps over 300*F. I would never run a 15w40 in there. Lots of guys with older Harleys do but the 96 engine is different as far as running hot. I would only run a syn 20w50 or 20w60 in a TC96.

 

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Skunky - Where's the sense in suggesting the removal of coolant from a water-cooled engine? I didn't suggest you mill off the cooling fins from your air-cooled engine, did I? You made an incorrect implication regarding engine displacment vs. sump capacity, and now your answer is to sabotage the cooling system of an opposing view point? That's well reasoned ...

Most engines are designed for a proper operating environment, and then special considereations are taking into account to give the best compromise for most plausible conditions, by OEM design. Even with no forward speed, the cooling fins and supplemental oil cooler will produce some decent cooling effect from thermal convection and subsequent air movement. Is it ideal? No, it's not.

One of the worst things that any Harley rider can do is get his ride heat-soaked, and then sit and idle. It's probably the worst that can happen. But that is not UNIQUE to Harleys; the same can be said for other applications as well (BMW, MotoGuzzi, dual-sport bikes such as Honda's XR-650L, etc). At idle, the two most concerning items are the crank bearings and the con-rod bearings. The thinner the film strength of the lube oil, the greater the risk of that barrier failing. But, wanna take a guess as to the MAIN contributor of that film barrier failure? It's just as likely to fail from low pressure, as to viscosity drop. The engine can be just as easily damaged from an idle RPM that is too low, causing the oil pump to put inferior pressure out, as that of viscosity issues. Some HD faithful think it's "cool" (pardon the pun) to lope their engines down to 400 or 500 rpm, but that lowers the oil pressure to dangerous levels. I'd rather have a 15w-40 lube with a 900-1000 rpm idle, than a 50 grade oil and 500 rpm idle.

BTW, if you think it's any hotter in Branson, MO or Sturgis, SD than sitting in Indianapolis traffic at a dead standstill at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on 16th street after the Brickyard 400 NASCAR race in August, you don't know heat! NO ONE has a monopoly on "hot", sir.

All I'm saying to the OP is to give 15w-40 HDEO a try. I've had two Harley-Davidson bikes in my many years of bike ownership. I ran HDEO with no issues whatsoever. I've been stuck in traffic, just like everyone else upon occasion. I've done UOAs. I personally don't think that Harley 20w-50 oil is any better (and likely a lot worse) than a premium dino HDEO such as Delo, Delvac or Rotella.

But the only way to KNOW for sure is to do some UOAs in controlled experiments.

The OP asked for opinions, and he's gotten some. The rest is up to him.


Ok..your right..he got opinions..His bike, his money, his oil, his problem.

 

[dnewton3]

PT1 - I have seen different experiences than you guys have. Not that you're wrong, but that doesn't make your view completely "right", either. It's just different experiences I'm trying to compare.

I often ride with a guy that has a couple of TC96 based engines; one in a Duece, and the other an FL Standard (both injected). In both bikes, he has temp gages in the oil res tanks. He keeps a close eye on them. Just for giggles once, we swapped temp sensors to see if the gages have much effect on the readings (they didn't) from bike to bike. The Duece tends to run a bit hotter, for some reason; around 285 degF as an average, maybe? Overall, the Standard runs between 240-275 degF most of the time, even on very hot days. He put a H-D oil cooler on the Duece, and that helped emensely as well; down to around 260 degF now.

What are you guys doing that you're routinely seeing 300+ degF sump temps? (Sure, the head get's much hotter than that, but so does a turbo, which goes back a few posts for our comments). But sump temps at 300+ F? You guys must be spending way more time idling than riding. Not that there's anything wrong with that; to each his own. For people that are in motion most of the time, HDEOs tend to do quite well. If you're in parades or traffic at Daytona, perhaps a 50 or 60 grade might be better. But that's a small, limited application. Most of us RIDE, not sit and bake.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
For the purposes of this dicussion and use in a Harley, 15w50 and 20w50 are interchangable as far as I'm concerned. The M1 15w50 has been used for decades in Harleys as well as air cooled Porche 911s and other applications due to its synthetic base and stout additive package. It used to be called red cap for the color of the cap on the bottle. It has always tested at the top in Full Throttle Magazine, American Iron Magazine, or even the Amsoil tests. At some point, about year 2000 Exxon Mobil decided to cash in on its popularity with Harley owners and came out with the Vtwin version in 20w50 for more $$. A bit more ZDDP and maybe some changes to the base formula. They dicontinued the old red cap for a while then reintroduced it in its current silver cap package due to customer feedback. I know people personally that have used 15W50 M1 exclusively in their HDs for well over a decade (same bike). A guy claims 600K miles on a gold wing using it. I would be surprised if anyone thought HD dino is as good as M1 15w50. Know one I know for sure. The advanges of the M1 15w50 are price per Qt. and availability. It can be found at most parts stores and all Walmarts. Walmart has the 5 Qt jugs for about $26.00

I change filter every oil change but that's me. For the kind of miles you are riding I would entertain once a year oil and filter changes as long as you continue riding a bit in the winter months.
Thanks for the response. As I said, I'm looking for a good alternative to HD dino, for about the same or less cost. With the miles I currently do, I'm not willing to give the extra 4 bucks a qt for the Vtwin 20W50 version. I think your first post gave a good outline of what to use and how long. And, I do ride in the winter months on the warmer days.

Brad Penn also looks to be a reasonable alternative, though maybe somewhat harder to find.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
PT1 - I have seen different experiences than you guys have. Not that you're wrong, but that doesn't make your view completely "right", either. It's just different experiences I'm trying to compare.

I often ride with a guy that has a couple of TC96 based engines; one in a Duece, and the other an FL Standard (both injected). In both bikes, he has temp gages in the oil res tanks. He keeps a close eye on them. Just for giggles once, we swapped temp sensors to see if the gages have much effect on the readings (they didn't) from bike to bike. The Duece tends to run a bit hotter, for some reason; around 285 degF as an average, maybe? Overall, the Standard runs between 240-275 degF most of the time, even on very hot days. He put a H-D oil cooler on the Duece, and that helped emensely as well; down to around 260 degF now.

What are you guys doing that you're routinely seeing 300+ degF sump temps? (Sure, the head get's much hotter than that, but so does a turbo, which goes back a few posts for our comments). But sump temps at 300+ F? You guys must be spending way more time idling than riding. Not that there's anything wrong with that; to each his own. For people that are in motion most of the time, HDEOs tend to do quite well. If you're in parades or traffic at Daytona, perhaps a 50 or 60 grade might be better. But that's a small, limited application. Most of us RIDE, not sit and bake.


I have a TC88 but know guys down South who get those temps routinely. My bike runs at 220-240 with 20w50 synthetics. Here in NE Ohio probably not a big deal but the temps are not with an oil tank guage. The baggers run the hottest and yes an oil cooler helps. But for a few bucks why tempt fate with a 15w40 IMO. I have about $16k in my bike and like the performance of synthetics for the extra $10. At 285*F your friend should be running syn oil IMO. If you want to see the results go on some of the Harley forums where guys have pulled TC96 police bagger engines apart that are run on HD360 20w50 and 15w40 HDEOs and see the burned cylinders & heads. The bikes still run but are damaged for the low mileage for sure. Synthetic oil is a cheap investment in a $4000 engine.

 

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
For the purposes of this dicussion and use in a Harley, 15w50 and 20w50 are interchangable as far as I'm concerned. The M1 15w50 has been used for decades in Harleys as well as air cooled Porche 911s and other applications due to its synthetic base and stout additive package. It used to be called red cap for the color of the cap on the bottle. It has always tested at the top in Full Throttle Magazine, American Iron Magazine, or even the Amsoil tests. At some point, about year 2000 Exxon Mobil decided to cash in on its popularity with Harley owners and came out with the Vtwin version in 20w50 for more $$. A bit more ZDDP and maybe some changes to the base formula. They dicontinued the old red cap for a while then reintroduced it in its current silver cap package due to customer feedback. I know people personally that have used 15W50 M1 exclusively in their HDs for well over a decade (same bike). A guy claims 600K miles on a gold wing using it. I would be surprised if anyone thought HD dino is as good as M1 15w50. Know one I know for sure. The advanges of the M1 15w50 are price per Qt. and availability. It can be found at most parts stores and all Walmarts. Walmart has the 5 Qt jugs for about $26.00

I change filter every oil change but that's me. For the kind of miles you are riding I would entertain once a year oil and filter changes as long as you continue riding a bit in the winter months.
Thanks for the response. As I said, I'm looking for a good alternative to HD dino, for about the same or less cost. With the miles I currently do, I'm not willing to give the extra 4 bucks a qt for the Vtwin 20W50 version. I think your first post gave a good outline of what to use and how long. And, I do ride in the winter months on the warmer days.

Brad Penn also looks to be a reasonable alternative, though maybe somewhat harder to find.


http://www.jpcycles.com/productgroup.aspx?GID=8081565A-C98F-41E3-98CA-2C21435F990E&brand=revtech

 

[Turk]

Put in the Race Tuner like I have and you can run the air/fuel mix at 12.8:1...

 

[dnewton3]

PT1, Skunky - thanks. In no way do I mean to discount your experiences. They just don't match up with mine. That doesn't make us wrong; just gives us different viewpoints.

My buddy with the two HDs has a CVO Duece with the bigger engine and factory performance package. (One of the most beautiful bikes I have EVER seen, incidentially. It's gold/black. Simply stunning!). Anyway, I'm not sure why it used to run hotter than the bagger, but it did. Not a problem now that he has added the cooler. Could be the tune, but the thing runs so rich you'd think it would be cooler from all the fuel. Anyway, I've got him experimenting with oils now. He's running dino HDEO in one, and the expensive Harley synthetic oil in the other. Then, we're going to swap. It's hard to track oil temps vs. OAT; got to do a lot of detailed charting. We're obviously at a standstill due to IN weather right now. To be continued when mother nature cooperates.

My personal experiences with Harleys shows that I had very comfortable UOAs with dino HDEO. But I don't own those bikes any longer; on a GL1800 now.

 

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
PT1, Skunky - thanks. In no way do I mean to discount your experiences. They just don't match up with mine. That doesn't make us wrong; just gives us different viewpoints.

My buddy with the two HDs has a CVO Duece with the bigger engine and factory performance package. (One of the most beautiful bikes I have EVER seen, incidentially. It's gold/black. Simply stunning!). Anyway, I'm not sure why it used to run hotter than the bagger, but it did. Not a problem now that he has added the cooler. Could be the tune, but the thing runs so rich you'd think it would be cooler from all the fuel. Anyway, I've got him experimenting with oils now. He's running dino HDEO in one, and the expensive Harley synthetic oil in the other. Then, we're going to swap. It's hard to track oil temps vs. OAT; got to do a lot of detailed charting. We're obviously at a standstill due to IN weather right now. To be continued when mother nature cooperates.

My personal experiences with Harleys shows that I had very comfortable UOAs with dino HDEO. But I don't own those bikes any longer; on a GL1800 now.

I agree to disagree...

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
PT1,

My buddy with the two HDs has a CVO Duece with the bigger engine and factory performance package. (One of the most beautiful bikes I have EVER seen, indicentially. It's gold/black. Simply stunning!). Anyway, I'm not sure why it used to run hotter than the bagger, but it did. Not a problem now that he has added the cooler. Could be the tune, but the thing runs so rich you'd think it would be cooler from all the fuel. Anyway, I've got him experimenting with oils now. He's running dino HDEO in one, and the expensive Harley synthetic oil in the other. Then, we're going to swap. It's hard to track oil temps vs. OAT; got to do a lot of detailed charting. We're obviously at a standstill due to IN weather right now. To be continued when mother nature cooperates.



As stated in a previous post some people are claiming double digit temp reduction with Amsoil, Red Line and M1 Vtwin over HD Syn 3. Most do not consider the Syn 3 to be anything special considering the price they ask for it. If the experiment continues you might try one of these oils as well at the smae price as the Syn 3.