Hawk HPS pads and cryo rotors

[JHZR2]

Hello,

For my 98 Chevy S-10, I need to get a bit more bite over OE pads/rotors. My pedal is soft, and despite lots of flushing, both power and pedal-assisted, it doesnt help. I feel like the pads/rotors just have no bite.

Im looking into a better combination of pad/rotor. Im looking currently at the hawk HPS, though am also considering the bendix CP-3 (could be the wrong designation).

Also, the truck sits a lot, and generally isnt used that hard (I dont ride the brake or slam into red lights at least), btu Im looking at cryo treated rotors from frozenrotors.com. Any thoughts on these? I wouldnt get the slotted ones, just the normal rotors. Is there a real benefit over, say, Napa Premium?

Thanks in advance!

JMH

 

[d00df00d]

Better rotors won't help your bite. They will help heat tolerance, which shouldn't be an issue at all with your driving. Stick with good quality normal-style replacements (I love Brembo, but NAPA Premium will probably be good too).

Hawk HPS is a great pad, but only when hot. When cold, it's nothing special (in the dead of winter it's sometimes worse than OEM). If you want your brakes to clamp down hard anywhere, any time, the best popular alternative is usually Axxis Ultimate. It's not always quiet and it dusts like nothing I've ever seen, but it gets the job done in a big way, in just about any temperature.

If your pedal is spongy, look into stainless steel brake lines or even a newer set of OEM lines. Also, pop your hood, look at the brake master cylinder, and have a friend jam the brakes; if you see any flex where the BMC is bolted into the firewall, make sure all the bolts are tight and such.

 

[hate2work]

Hawk pads are great, but I wouldn't waste the money on cryo treated rotors. I think they work well, but they are kind of expensive for what you get, IMO.

Go with SP Performance slotted rotors and Hawk pads, you can't go wrong, and it will be about half of what you pay for the cryo ones.

For the ultimate setup, you would also spring for a G-stop brake line kit from Goodridge. Zero flex in the lines means zero mush in the pedal. Combined with the rotors/pads, you'll be able to stop on a bottle cap

 

[SamSpade]

I'm using the Hawk HPS pads now on a BMW 3-series. Just like d00df00d said, it's only great when warmed up.

I do occasional light track days and weekend spirited canyon carving, so it fits my needs. But for regular daily driving I don't recommend it. It's not suitable for quick cold stopping power when cruising the highway, especially for a truck. I haven't tried the Axxis Ultimates (now called ULT), but they look appropriate for your needs. I'm actually moving to them when my HPS pads are done.

For rotors, regular stock would be enough. Anything more expensive would be a waste of money for you.

 

[ourfamo4]

Cryo treated rotors will mostly help with the service life of the rotor, you will not receive any "real" performance gain.

I would also recommend using a ceramic pad, like PBR ULT or Hawk Ceramic. These are designed to be more of an upgraded than most other pads.

I've run the PBR ULT and Metal Masters, the MM had more bite but also produced more dust. So you might what to look into those.

 

[JHZR2]

I guess I wasnt fully clear... One of my issues is that the truck is seldom used. My fear is that in time, the rotors will rust from the inside out, particularly sue to use in rain, off roading, periodic washing, etc.

My thought is that the cryo treated rotors are more resistant to oxidation and rust, so may provide benefit there. That seemed to be the consensus from reviews Ive read.

Otherwise Ill just go Napa premium. I dont really believe in "performance" gains from rotors anyway, and dont believe in the "benefits" of slotted/drilled rotors for street (or most track) use. The whole value/benefit would be from higher rust resistance...

Now as for the pads, if the Hawk HPS dont have good initial bite, any thoughts on the duralast gold or the Bendix pads? Ill also be checking into those mentioned.

Thanks!

JMH

 

[JHZR2]

also any thoughts on the "greenstuff" pads?

 

[TLAR640]

Take a look at Wagner ThermoQuiet pads, I've had good luck with them.

 

[Kestas]

I'm a metallurgist and I can't understand what is behind the hype over cryotreated rotors. I simply don't understand the mechanism behind cryotreating, what it actually does to the metal, and how it would make the rotor perform better (i.e., service life, rust resistance). Nobody has been able to explain it to me in terms that I understand.

Some explanations use terms like "aligns the molecules (or atoms) in the metal", which makes my eyes glaze over and is a red flag for snake oil vernacular. No metallurgist uses these terms.

I think the rust resistance of cryotreated rotors is a placebo effect. Unless someone has verified this phenomenon using accepted test methods, like ASTM B 117, I'll have to call shenanigans on that thought.

 

[SD26]

I don't have any engineering data for you.

Here's what I understand. A molecular structure can have a shape. By cryo-ing the metal, the structure changes a bit. Think of the original structure as a bunch of square cubes. After cryo, the structures are more like rectangular shapes, like a paver patio, for example. Under load, the "cube" metals can "slide" around more so than the paver patio metal.

Nine years ago, I raced a bike that had problems with its rotors dishing out. It was a common problem from that OEM manufacturer. The next year, I had the rotors cryo treated, and the problems went away.

I had it done locally at a place that does cryo work. No endorcements for them. They are a tool shop, and they cryo a lot of their own tools with customer stuff. They personally recognize increased tool life (x3) vs non cryo stuff.

Another guy that I know from motorcycle racing did the same thing to his rotors independent of me, and he had similar results.

Cryo treatments won't make melted coat hangers into the best material on the face of the earth. But I think it can clean up a good metal. Metal is heat treated to improve it. Cold can be done also for additional results.

I think a couple of the original origins of the "cryo" process that I know of are in motorsports and in airplanes. I believe that in the 40's, propellers were being "frozen" with dry ice in an attempt to increase strength to increase prop and air speeds. I guess the props shattered, and that was due to the inability for a consistent freezing like what is done today with computers. At the Harley-Davidson race department, it was customary to place the race engines on top of the building on Juneau Avenue on the roof during the cold winter for the "normalizing" process. Did something to the cylinders.

I believe that oil rig drill bits though were one of the first big winners somewhere in the 60's and 70's as the process started to come around. Less replacement of bits means more productivity.

 

[VK56VD]

What pads are on the truck now?

Look into Bendix CT-3 pads. They offer a one time free replacement from Advance Auto Parts. The Napa Premium rotors come with a free replacement as well.

If you go with the above set up, you will not have to pay for new pads & rotors the next time you do a brake job.

The Centric Premium rotors are very good as well. They have an E-coating on the hub to protect against ugly rust.

As mentioned above, check your master cylinder, brake lines, and make sure the calipers are moving freely. I hear upgrading to Stainless Steel brake lines firms up the pedal as well.

 

[Kestas]

I have plenty of engineering data for cryotreating for quench-and-tempered steel (i.e., tool bits, gears, bearings), know that it works, and understand the mechanism that's involved behind the data. This is accepted and understood in the engineering community. I don't see how it works for non-hardened product.

I am also more than familiar with crystal structures of metals and have learned many nuances of metal transformation that would make your eyes glaze over. Your explanation of square cubes turning into rectangular shapes is a simplified way of explaining how the retained austenite in quench-and-tempered steel transforms to martensite during cryotreating. But this only happens in heat treated carbon steel, not soft gray iron rotors and engine blocks, which are ferrite and pearlite with flakes of graphite. The metal stays as "cubes" even at cryogenic temperatures.

Metals don't "slide around" unless you're talking about dislocation pileup. Any "sliding" within a metal is undesireable.

I have gallons of liquid nitrogen in my lab available to me. I have no desire to treat non-hardened parts in the liquid.

 

[SD26]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I have plenty of engineering data for cryotreating for quench-and-tempered steel (i.e., tool bits, gears, bearings), know that it works, and understand the mechanism that's involved behind the data. This is accepted and understood in the engineering community. I don't see how it works for non-hardened product.

I am also more than familiar with crystal structures of metals and have learned many nuances of metal transformation that would make your eyes glaze over. Your explanation of square cubes turning into rectangular shapes is a simplified way of explaining how the retained austenite in quench-and-tempered steel transforms to martensite during cryotreating. But this only happens in heat treated carbon steel, not soft gray iron rotors and engine blocks, which are ferrite and pearlite with flakes of graphite. The metal stays as "cubes" even at cryogenic temperatures.

Metals don't "slide around" unless you're talking about dislocation pileup. Any "sliding" within a metal is undesireable.

I have gallons of liquid nitrogen in my lab available to me. I have no desire to treat non-hardened parts in the liquid.

Treating parts "in the liquid" is a complete over simplification of the process. You're an engineer, you should understand that. It isn't just the what, it's the how.

As for sliding around, cylinders can go out of round from heat and even having pressure put on them from having heads attached, etc.

I can't sell you on it, but I don't need to. I have some actual experience that showed a change with my regular, reasonably consistent useage, in addition to some others that have had similar results.

Have you worked with some of the US aluminums vs Chinese aluminums? We use aluminum drive sprockets, and there is a substantial difference in them for wear even though they test out as being the same aluminum. Which just goes back to the problem with any research is that there are more questions, equations, and thoughts that need to be gone over as one never has all the answers.

 

[tom slick]

I know it is fun to order speciality products but I have never had any issues using NAPA's premium parts. good initial bite, long wearing, rotors were american made. They aren't for the budget minded though.
I wanted some less expensive pads for my f-150 so I installed some Wagner Thermo-quiet pads on the front for $20 after rebate. They've been on for 2 weeks and the performance has been great for my driving style (I don't have any delusions of a race truck).
I installed Carbon Metallic (brand) pads on a late 80's pontiac several years ago. They made stopping worse when they were cold, which was most of the time.

 

[Kestas]

I agree that "in the liquid" was an over simplification, used for discussion purposes. In practise they ramp the temperature drop in a controlled fashion.

Now I'm not sure what kind of sliding you were originally talking about.

Part of my duties is to qualify Chinese (and other source) metals for the bearing industry. It wouldn't be a stretch for me to evaluate aluminum as well. I've worked with aluminum many times before. I'm sure a good met lab could find the difference between the two aluminums for you.

Maybe some day someone will metallurgically define what happens to cast iron to make it wear better after cryotreating. Nobody has done it to date.

 

[SD26]

Our rotors are stainless. I know some that have done piston rings, and others have done full engines, engines being cast aluminum.

 

[Buffman]

A good anti rust coating such as zinc or even cadmium(sp) will help rust issues. I don't think cadmium is really used much by anyone I think except for Powerslot. I know mine are rust free after a 1.5yrs of use (storage for 5 months a year) and the coating is like new. People who have zinc coated rotors, have started to rust in the same time and the coating is failing in others.

I have Hawk HPS pads up front. I will agree that they get more bite when they get warmed up, but I've noticed this more from OEM GM ceramic pads (Mom's g6) and Bendix ceramic pads (on a 71 mustang). They will stop just fine if they're cold. Dust is very minimal and takes a LOT of continual stopping to get the dust to be noticeable.

The S10 is a smaller truck, so I honestly think the slightly less cold bite from the pads would be a non issue. My car is 4000lbs

For a budget I've always had good performance out of duralast pads and rotors. I use them on pretty much any job that someone just wants good lasting brakes.

 

[rg200amp]

I live in Philadelphia, pa,

My buddy is parting out his project s10. he has brand new cryo treated powerslots, and Hawk pads.


Get back to me if you want them, he will get you a good price.

 

[d00df00d]

EBC Greenstuff is pretty good in my experience. Usually a decent upgrade over stock.

Even if those cryo-treated rotors did have better rust/corrosion resistance (on which point I agree with the doubts already expressed), I can't imagine it'd be worth the price difference.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: rg200amp
I live in Philadelphia, pa,

My buddy is parting out his project s10. he has brand new cryo treated powerslots, and Hawk pads.


Get back to me if you want them, he will get you a good price.


Is it a 4x4? Mine is the ZR2 4wd variety, so it has far larger tires and discs all around.

Thanks,

JMH