The so called experts are saying at most a 3% penalty with E10. Well explain it to this Prius owner. This lady took a 18% hit going from 55 mpg to 45 mpg using E10.
Ethanol Story
Ethanol Story
Ethanol is killing gas mileage
- Thread starter ALS
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Something else is at play here definately. E10 calculates out that milege should drop 4.3%. She is reporting 18.9%. Any chance she filled up with E85 which may lower mileage 24%?
My Harley Davidson motorcycle actually get just a bit better mileage (or it definitely seems so) on the 10% ethanol gas. Probably the carb is jetted more favorably toward that mixture... I don't know.
There is actually less energy in ethanol than in gasoline, so it stands to reason that mileage would drop off some... but again, I've not seen it in my motorcycle, and haven't yet checked my 1993 Escort to see how it's fairing on the ethanol gas... probably a bit worse I'd guess.
I know that at least for the time being we're going to be seeing ethanol in the gas. Our tanker trucks (I manage 13 of them in the Virginia area, and also drive one) are hauling a LOT of ethanol from Denton, NC from a railroad pick up point there to the gasoline terminals in the Greensboro, NC area. Our trucks haul about 8 to 10 tanker loads a day to the Marathon terminal there, and we're only one of several carriers doing much the same thing. I'm not sure how many total loads of ethanol are going to that fuel terminal a day, but would guess it's about 30 to 40, which of course is blended into gasoline to get the 10% ethanol mixture.
The fuel tankers have to have the correct gaskets in them to seal the ethanol into the trailers. If you have the old cork style gaskets on the discharge heads, the ethanol will eat through them and begin seeping out. The stuff practically vaporizes almost on contact with the ground. If you spill at small amount when you're disconnecting the hoses you can watch a 12" puddle on the ground evaporate in a less than a minute... then it's gone.
Dan
There is actually less energy in ethanol than in gasoline, so it stands to reason that mileage would drop off some... but again, I've not seen it in my motorcycle, and haven't yet checked my 1993 Escort to see how it's fairing on the ethanol gas... probably a bit worse I'd guess.
I know that at least for the time being we're going to be seeing ethanol in the gas. Our tanker trucks (I manage 13 of them in the Virginia area, and also drive one) are hauling a LOT of ethanol from Denton, NC from a railroad pick up point there to the gasoline terminals in the Greensboro, NC area. Our trucks haul about 8 to 10 tanker loads a day to the Marathon terminal there, and we're only one of several carriers doing much the same thing. I'm not sure how many total loads of ethanol are going to that fuel terminal a day, but would guess it's about 30 to 40, which of course is blended into gasoline to get the 10% ethanol mixture.
The fuel tankers have to have the correct gaskets in them to seal the ethanol into the trailers. If you have the old cork style gaskets on the discharge heads, the ethanol will eat through them and begin seeping out. The stuff practically vaporizes almost on contact with the ground. If you spill at small amount when you're disconnecting the hoses you can watch a 12" puddle on the ground evaporate in a less than a minute... then it's gone.
Dan
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I lose 50Km per 40 dollars when I use a gas with 10% Ethanol, such as Sunoco or Shell.
I'm not sure how it compares to her claim, but it was definitely noticeable.
I'm not sure how it compares to her claim, but it was definitely noticeable.
Originally Posted By: ALS
The so called experts are saying at most a 3% penalty with E10. Well explain it to this Prius owner. This lady took a 18% hit going from 55 mpg to 45 mpg using E10.
Ethanol Story
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
The so called experts are saying at most a 3% penalty with E10. Well explain it to this Prius owner. This lady took a 18% hit going from 55 mpg to 45 mpg using E10.
Ethanol Story
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
I have noticed no change in mileage using E10 in my 07 Mustang GT.
In a carbureted motorcycle (or car) the effect will be different and not comparable to that in a fuel-injected feedback-controlled system.
I have to agree with those who have noted that the energy density hit from E10 should be present but small, and any fuel economy change should be no larger. Of course other variables often confuse the results and are almost certainly the source of this lady's problem.
I have to agree with those who have noted that the energy density hit from E10 should be present but small, and any fuel economy change should be no larger. Of course other variables often confuse the results and are almost certainly the source of this lady's problem.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
Thank you for helping out.
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
Thank you for helping out.
Look at http://www.fueleconomy.gov and see the difference in E85 and non E85 vehicles. It's pretty significant in GM Trucks.
The problem isn't energy content- Diesel contains less energy per volume, but gets better MPG.
The problem with ethanol is two-fold:
1) Pure ethanol has a very high octane rating. (It's racing gas, after all.) When they blend it with gasoline, they use gasoline with a lower octane rating to end up with a mixture that's 87. Not only are you burning ethanol with lower energy content, you are burning cheaper, worser gasoline.
2) Engines tuned for gasoline don't burn ethanol as well as they could. To get ethanol to run right, you need advanced timing and a higher compression ratio. The auto manufacturers aren't going to build an engine that does this because if Joe Consumer puts regular 87 octane in it, it will destroy itself. It's possible to do this with existing technology- the GM supercharged engines retard boost and timing when they have 87 octane in it. They could do this with a flex-fuel vehicle if they wanted. But I don't think people will buy a regular vehicle that *requires* E85 or 93 octane.
I'm currently experimenting with my Dodge Spirit- there's a station nearby that has e85, so I started using it and bumped up the timing (it still has a distributor). I haven't been doing it long enough to get mileage results, but I believe they will be comparable.
The problem with ethanol is two-fold:
1) Pure ethanol has a very high octane rating. (It's racing gas, after all.) When they blend it with gasoline, they use gasoline with a lower octane rating to end up with a mixture that's 87. Not only are you burning ethanol with lower energy content, you are burning cheaper, worser gasoline.
2) Engines tuned for gasoline don't burn ethanol as well as they could. To get ethanol to run right, you need advanced timing and a higher compression ratio. The auto manufacturers aren't going to build an engine that does this because if Joe Consumer puts regular 87 octane in it, it will destroy itself. It's possible to do this with existing technology- the GM supercharged engines retard boost and timing when they have 87 octane in it. They could do this with a flex-fuel vehicle if they wanted. But I don't think people will buy a regular vehicle that *requires* E85 or 93 octane.
I'm currently experimenting with my Dodge Spirit- there's a station nearby that has e85, so I started using it and bumped up the timing (it still has a distributor). I haven't been doing it long enough to get mileage results, but I believe they will be comparable.
Originally Posted By: swalve
2) Engines tuned for gasoline don't burn ethanol as well as they could. To get ethanol to run right, you need advanced timing and a higher compression ratio. The auto manufacturers aren't going to build an engine that does this because if Joe Consumer puts regular 87 octane in it, it will destroy itself. It's possible to do this with existing technology- the GM supercharged engines retard boost and timing when they have 87 octane in it. They could do this with a flex-fuel vehicle if they wanted. But I don't think people will buy a regular vehicle that *requires* E85 or 93 octane.
A throttle-by-wire setup could handle this. If someone fills with 87 octane instead of 93, it would limit the throttle opening, limiting effective compression to a safe level. Power would suck, but it would not detonate.
Ethanol is too expensive to be burned in an 87 octane engine. It should be burned in a diesel, using a vaporizer.
2) Engines tuned for gasoline don't burn ethanol as well as they could. To get ethanol to run right, you need advanced timing and a higher compression ratio. The auto manufacturers aren't going to build an engine that does this because if Joe Consumer puts regular 87 octane in it, it will destroy itself. It's possible to do this with existing technology- the GM supercharged engines retard boost and timing when they have 87 octane in it. They could do this with a flex-fuel vehicle if they wanted. But I don't think people will buy a regular vehicle that *requires* E85 or 93 octane.
A throttle-by-wire setup could handle this. If someone fills with 87 octane instead of 93, it would limit the throttle opening, limiting effective compression to a safe level. Power would suck, but it would not detonate.
Ethanol is too expensive to be burned in an 87 octane engine. It should be burned in a diesel, using a vaporizer.
A carburetor has a "dumb" air/fuel ratio that is set and then remains fixed. A feedback injection system like on virtually any car these days will enrich the ratio as needed if an oxygenated fuel like ethanol is used. In other words it will retain its efficiency and the loss of power or mileage will only be in proportion to the lower energy density of the fuel.
Yep. Went out to Sturgis last week and my carbed 1500 Goldwing got better mileage on straight gas than 10% ethanol. Others riding carbed and fuel injected Harleys had better mileage using non-ethanol gas.
Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
If you spill at small amount when you're disconnecting the hoses you can watch a 12" puddle on the ground evaporate in a less than a minute... then it's gone.
Dan
It seems with ethanol you won't have to worry about having water in your gas tank.
If you spill at small amount when you're disconnecting the hoses you can watch a 12" puddle on the ground evaporate in a less than a minute... then it's gone.
Dan
It seems with ethanol you won't have to worry about having water in your gas tank.
I noticed same trip,same approximate speed, 2 less miles per gallon with 10% ethanol.
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Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
Thank you for helping out.
You just reminded me of some 70's Boone's Farm Apple Wine commercial where the two older gentlemen were sitting on the porch.
"Thank you for your support!"
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
The explanation is simple. Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving. In fact, I consumed a bunch of it last night. More than intended, actually -- I felt like I had some sort of moral obligation to save as much ethanol as I could from ending up in some anonymous gas tank somewhere! Hey, every drop of ETOH that ends up in a fuel tank is driving up the cost of drinking for everyone. Gotta keep things in proper perspective...
Thank you for helping out.
You just reminded me of some 70's Boone's Farm Apple Wine commercial where the two older gentlemen were sitting on the porch.
"Thank you for your support!"
epolk,that's too funny.
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