help on chainsaw chain types & kickback explanati.

[1 FMF]

had a stihl 011av that was burned up by b.i.l. by using walmart 2-cycle oil and probably mixed lean also,
so he picked up a poulan wild thing as a replacement- 40cc 18" bar.
done a little bit of cutting with it and it seems like the chain is shot.
It's possible the chain ran against the ground a little when I used it last, so how fast will a chain dull and not cut if it contacts material other than wood?

are the chains that come on cheapo saws from depot and lowes less durable than the chains that are on a stihl?

for replacement chains, I tried googling types of them but got little info other than marketing stuff.
I think what's on there is a picco type ? How is that different than a rapid type (the only other I read according to stihl website) ?

What type replacement chain should I get?

How about chain sharpening? A replacement chain is < $20 I think, but a quality hand file tool according to google is around $40. Should I look into a sharpener, or just by chains?

and give me your explanation of kickback. i think i know what it is technically but i want a second opinions on what it is.

 

[Barkleymut]

If it seems like the chain is shot, then i really just needs to be sharpened. However sharpening a chain is a true art form. I've done it myself with limited success (it would cut well for a few minutes and then be dull again) this is because I couldn't sharpen at exactly the right angle. I've also taken my chains to be sharpened professionally. I was always very happy because they came back as good as new and would cut well for over an hour. Then I took them somewhere else that was closer and they were apparently no better than me at sharpening. So I would talk to a tree guy in your area if you see one at 7-11 or something and just quickly ask who is "really good" at sharpening chains, they will know.

As for the new saw, thats a bummer. I've used Stihls, Husqvarna, and even a "wild thing". The quality of the chains on a wild thing are no where as good as on a Stihl. And yes if you hit soil, you just lost 20-50% of the sharpness on a chain.

***Do not run a saw that is not cutting well, there is a reason and you will heat up the chain way above what it is designed to cut at and stretch the chain. Safety is always the #1 concern when using a saw and risking this is beyond stupid.

As for picco and rapid, don't worry about it on the wild thing. You will likely notice little difference on a good sharp chain.

Kickback- this is when a saw hits a hard spot of wood or maybe a vine that you didn't see and it literally uses the inertia to push the saw and bar back towards the user. This is why you hold the saw off to the side so if a big kickback occurs it doesn't hit your shoulder or face, instead it misses your ear by a foot.

 

[1 FMF]

on kickback- there's a kickback angle or something associated with the bar tip?
how significant is kickback if you operate the saw where your cutting with the bottom of the bar against the motor or the part of the bar furthest from the tip?

 

[Gillsy]

If my memory serves me right there is an area near the tip that increases the likelyhood of kickback if you attempt to cut in this area. There are also chains that have anti-kickback features built into them. There are chains without that feature, and I think they cut like crazy, but are better off in the hands of professional woodcutters. As far as sharpened chains go, the sharpened ones are often better than the new ones. The new ones are usually ground with a wheel that grinds a slot in the cutting surface. A file for re-sharpening cuts a radius (greater cutting surface). My file has an angle built into the handle. Lined up properly with the chain it works pretty good. With a little practice, you can achieve good results. Lastly, if the chain touched the ground at all while cutting, it will need to be re-sharpened. The damage is done. I hope this helps.

 

[Kestas]

Careful to whom you lend a chainsaw. I had a friend burn up one of my chainsaws. These are high maintenance items. I'd guess that for every hour or two that you use it, you'll spend roughly one hour maintaining it.

One clue that the chain needs sharpening is when the chips produced are more dust-like than actual chips.

Kickback is when the blade tip hits wood. The tip shouldn't hit anything. There are methods to reduce kickback such as keeping your arm on the main handle extended at all times. Most modern chains have depth limiters in front of each cutter. This markedly reduces kickback with only a little loss in cutting performance.

A decent owners manual will address all of these issues.

 

[doitmyself]

Chainsaws are very dangerous. All modern saws should have a chainbrake and other kick back features.

Here is a an example of kick back on you tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoyyjuG0K-A

It occurs in a split second and can plunge a saw into your face or body before you can even blink. I have had it occur twice in my thirty year career as a forester. Each time, it happened so fast I did not even realize my chain brake had activated.

Anti-kickback chains cut much less efficient than regular chains and are designed to "idiot proof" saws for general consumers.

Thousands of chainsaw accidents happen annually. I never operate one without chaps and hard hat/ear/eye protection. My thighs have been saved several times by chaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah-FmYnaIWw&feature=related

I urge everyone to get safety training.

You can learn sharpening manually...it helps to have someone teach you. If you are deficient in mechanical skills, have them sharpened for $2 or $3.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Any good links to "technical" info on how chain brakes work and are adjusted (if appplicable).

I don't routinely use a saw, but once in a while (every couple of years) I may and would like to be more educated.

 

[doitmyself]

I don't know of any adjustments to this safety feature.

Every once in a while you can test it's operation.

With the saw at half throttle or more, hold it with your left hand on the top bar in normal fashion (thumb/fingers locked around the bar) and right hand around the throttle handle. In a smooth, controlled move, tip the bar end up and rotate your left wrist/hand forward until it bumps the chain brake "lever" enough to activate it. The chain should stop IMMEDIATELY, even at full throttle.

The tipping up action can be accomplished by keeping your right arm/elbow locked straight to create a pivot point. Your right hand pushes down on the throttle handle to tip the bar end up. Practice with the saw not running a few times.

I think the chain brake is some sort of clutch that grabs the output shaft of the engine to stop it turning.....I think.

 

[doitmyself]

Hate the edit time block here. I guess some saws (Stihl) also have an inertia mechanism that stops the blade even if your hand doesn't touch the lever.

Here's some good stuff: http://www.stihlusa.com/information/info_lit_video.html#realvid


Around minute 6:50 of chapter 5 video shows the chain brake check. It shows it better than I tried to describe....my locked arm technique is a poor description.

If you rev your saw a lot with the brake engaged, you can melt the chain oiler mechanism and ruin it. Don't ask how I learned this.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Great info, thank you!

 

[Lazy JW]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
...

I think the chain brake is some sort of clutch that grabs the output shaft of the engine to stop it turning.....I think.


Yup. It actually stops the output drum of the centrifugal clutch, which has the drive sprocket for the chain.

If you look closely at a standard saw chain you will see the cutter teeth with the integral depth gauge, which is often mistakenly called a "raker". The depth gauge controls how deep the cutters actually bite. The pressure of the cut trys to tip the cutter backwards and the depth gauge contacts the wood, preventing any further tipping.

As the cutters are filed back they get shorter and also lower due to the angle built into them. This means the depth gauges need to be lowered periodically. You can buy a little tool (usually called a "raker gauge") that is placed over the chain and then a flat file is used to file down the depth gauge.

As the chain nears its useful end-life the depth gauges need to be lowered a bit more (at least .010") than when new because the extra distance between the cutter and the depth gauge results in different tooth geometry. New chains are often set about .025" lower on the depth gauge, a worn out chain needs probably .035".
Joe

 

[H2GURU]

Theres 2 types of chains. If you're just cutting firewood (not hanging from a ladder limbing) you can get an AGRESSIVE chain that leaves chips the size of dimes and cuts extremely fast, but extra care IS REQUIRED.

 

[H2GURU]

Theres 2 types of chains. If you're just cutting firewood (not hanging from a ladder limbing) you can get an AGRESSIVE chain that leaves chips the size of dimes and cuts extremely fast, but extra care IS REQUIRED.

 

[bob_ninja]

I don't remember the last time I had a kickback. In particular, if you *DON'T* force the chain then risk of kickback is minimal. The previous advice about getting dust as opposed to chips is good. Chain is dull.

There is actually a great guide about chain maintenance from Stihl. Just do a search for:
"Sharp Advice" and Stihl

So safety yes. Well maintained chain usually means zero kickbacks. I was cutting some elm wood (which is hard but very uniform grain) with a single hand on the throttle. Of course, that is not very smart so don't do it except this time my Sithl was working so well and wood was so clean.

Anyway, any chain becomes dull sooner or later. I have Stihl and have excellent experience not just with the machine but their parts as well (chains). I found files to be too slow. It takes forever to restora an edge.

I started using a rotary tool with a proper size sharpening stone bit. *MUCH* faster which means that hours or maintenance are reduced into minutes (like max 30 min to sharpen to like new condition).

There are 3 primary/frequent maintenance tasks:
- air filter cleaning
I started using an air compressor to clean air filter and surrounding area since wood dust collects so rapidly
- chain
Per previous advice. Not that difficult after you read the Stihl manual. To reduce the time required you can use a rotary tool.
- chain bar
Inspect and file the bar since the channel often becomes unblanaced (one size wears faster than another). You'll notice chain cutting at an angle when channel is unbalanced.

Also less often change the sprocket. When mixing fuel you'll always be off some. Make sure to have too much as opposed to too little oil. That is a better mistake to make

 

[bob_ninja]

The explanation about kickback above is correct - a tooth tries to bit too much overcoming the engine force trying to move a chain.
So you have several possibilities:
- depth gauge is too low allowing teeth to bit too much
This only happens when you file them too much and is reflected by jerky motion as teetch keep biting too much. Also you'll see large chips being cut. This happens to me a lot as I my rotary tool can often file too much. What you do is simply apply no pressure with left hand and let chainsaw weight alone exert force on chain bar. Over time teeth wear out and get sharpened and eventually balance is restored.
- applying too much downward force onto a bar could cause the same effect, teeth bite too much
Again, less pressure. Tha manual states that properly setup machine cuts nice size chips without any force besides chainsaw weight alone. So if you are forcing the machine too much then it needs maintenance.
- sharp teeth can cut too deep
Again, less pressure and let the natural wear make them less sharp.

This is from someone who learned the hard way. I had spars and smoke coming from my chain at one point

Personally I see chain sharpening as inevtiable. Otherwise you are wasting money and time going to a shop all the time. Alternative is using a high quality chain - Stihl. I find a new chain can last a farly long time. However, it can be sharpened many times, so to get a good value out of it you should be ding sharpening yourself.

I don't know about others, but I find the rotary tool a huge time saver. You can still use hand file for fine tuning. I just don't have the time or patience. In theory you are supposed to inspect teeth and use hand file to fix the ones that are in a much worse shape than others.

Yes, soil and especially rocks dull a chain fast. I still fight battles with tree stumps that can bend my lawn mower blade. Cutting them with a chainsaw close to the ground dulls the chain as it hits soil, plus makes a mess of soil entering chainsaw. These days I also use battery powered hand saws like reciprocating saw, but they are limited (short). Anyway, avoid hitting ground and rocks as much as possible.

Depending on the usage, a cheaper brand is fine or not. I cut 2-3 cords of firewood every year, so for me Stihl is worth the extra money. I already ruined one and now use 2nd one, yet it has already payed for itself and all the parts. In particular, using the rotary tool I now get a much longer lifespan from chains and bars.

I even took a course for small engines and did a rebuild of the old engine. Not that hard to do actually. So I think paying extra for a good machine and simply maintaining it is a good investment.

Otherwise if you use it only rarely just go with one of the newer electric types. No oil and fuel to mix or go bad. Should be fine for smaller jobs. For an odd bigger job you can just borrow from a friend.

 

[Lazy JW]

I grew up working in the woods with my Dad (who was a logger). He taught me how to file chains, etc. Later he went into sawmills and I followed him, ended up working as a saw filer for the past 25 years now. I can hand file a chain about as well as anyone, but several years ago I bought a bench-mount grinder from Bailey's. There is no person alive who can maintain the consistency that is easy to get with a grinder, although a really good hand-filer can get close. That said, it is really a lot of work to do it properly by hand, and I'm just getting too lazy in my old age.

The anti-kickback chains use a modified "raker"/depth gauge that is longer than a standard depth gauge; when it travels around the tip they protrude outward far enough to prevent the tooth from biting. Just take an anti-kickback chain and try to cut with the tip of the bar; it won't allow it. They really have no effect when cutting normally though, and can still be subjected to "pushback", which is different than kickback. Kickback is caused by cutting on the tip; when the teeth bite in the bar bounces upwards. Pushback shoves the entire saw straight back toward the operator.

Aside from forgetting to put oil in the gas, most saws that get "burned up" are killed by lugging. Think about it: they are air-cooled; lugging not only generates more heat but also slows down the fan which REMOVES that heat. Bad news.

Keep it sharp and don't be afraid to wind it up!
Joe

 

[kgb007stb]

Build yourself one of these to avoid the ground.
Happy cutting!

in action

 

[ZZman]

Try to keep blade out of dirt. That dulls them fast.

 

[tdi-rick]

If you want to learn about saw chain types, go to http://www.oregonchain.com/sawch.htm (Windsor, Carlton and Stihl have similar pages)
Smaller consumer style saws usually run 0.325" pitch chain, with most 45cc+ pro and semi-pro saws using 3/8" pitch chain.
If you don't know what you have, just enter the saw details into here and the Oregon selector will give you your options.

FWIW, if you don't cut enough to buy a good bench grinder, or don't have the $, you can buy a clamp on filing jig like the Oregon Pro Filing guide, or the Granberg File-N-Joint and you will be able to accurately file all the angles and get a sharper chain than out of the box without practising to do it with the small filing guides.