Plus, Amsoil says the 25000 is in one year and a filter at 12,500 miles or 6 months (if Amsoil filter) and if you go beyond one year you need to have analysis done. (oil analysis and psychiatric) How many people drive 25,000 miles in one year? There are not many individuals on this board that are seeing great results beyond 12-15000 miles on any oil and it is sooooo engine specific as to how an oil performs.
Let's talk about extended intervals
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Giles,
You made the mistake everyone does and failed to add in the value of your personal labor to perform an oil/filter change, along with the cleanup mess that occurs.
I value my labor @ $25.00 per oil change, which alters the math considerably. I can also think of many more pleasant things to do than lie on my back on cold concrete and let hot oil run down my arm
Running 15,000 mile/1 year change intervals allows me the time to do the other maintainance items that need to be addressed, like brake/clutch fluid changes, ATF fluid changes, tuneups, etc. I do oil analysis mainly because I'm interested in collecting the data as a sales tool, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable going without it, and did for the first 16 years I used Amsoil.
I consider the break even point on Amsoil to be 7500 miles for their regular stuff and 9000 miles for the Series 2000/3000 products, compared to 3000 mile change intervals with a petroleum oil. If you take your car to a quick lube, they typically charge you $25.00 for a full oil change service. You can buy 5 quarts of Amsoil along with one of their premium filters at full retail - take it to a quick lube and let them install it - and it will cost you about $60.00, or $75.00 for the Series 2000, 0w-30. That's the way you should be comparing prices....
Why anyone would enjoy doing oil changes is beyond me ...I wouldn't go back to using petroleum oil and 3000 mile changes if you gave me the oil and filters for free. With several vehicles to maintain, along 4-5 pieces of lawn/garden equipment, I'd never have any free time at all
TooSlick
You made the mistake everyone does and failed to add in the value of your personal labor to perform an oil/filter change, along with the cleanup mess that occurs.
I value my labor @ $25.00 per oil change, which alters the math considerably. I can also think of many more pleasant things to do than lie on my back on cold concrete and let hot oil run down my arm
I consider the break even point on Amsoil to be 7500 miles for their regular stuff and 9000 miles for the Series 2000/3000 products, compared to 3000 mile change intervals with a petroleum oil. If you take your car to a quick lube, they typically charge you $25.00 for a full oil change service. You can buy 5 quarts of Amsoil along with one of their premium filters at full retail - take it to a quick lube and let them install it - and it will cost you about $60.00, or $75.00 for the Series 2000, 0w-30. That's the way you should be comparing prices....
Why anyone would enjoy doing oil changes is beyond me ...I wouldn't go back to using petroleum oil and 3000 mile changes if you gave me the oil and filters for free. With several vehicles to maintain, along 4-5 pieces of lawn/garden equipment, I'd never have any free time at all
TooSlick
That's true and that's why I posted the assumptions so you could determine if it applies to you. Subtract $35 from the Mobil 1 amount if you go with the $3 filter and Subtract $28 from the Amsoil number if you go with the $3 filter.
That's why I listed the assumptions so you can figure out if they apply. If you want to run Mobil 1 for 12,000 then the cost drops, but not as much as you expect since you have to add a quart every 3000 miles according to my assumptions. I picked 6000 because thats in the ballpark of what Mobil recommends since they don't promote extended drains anymore.quote:
Originally posted by Joe Soap:
IMHO, I reckon the Mobil 1 is definitely good for 12000 mi, and easily 15000 mi. This will perhaps change the cost equations a bit ?
If I did this I would be crazy to be changing my oil in the first place. I also wouldn't do any work around the house because I could hire it cheaper
If you go without analysis then I would say Amsoil becomes more reasonable, but in my opinion it isn't a good idea to run extended drains without knowing what's happening to the oil for certain. It is probably more cost effective to run Amsoil 7500 drain interval without analysis than to run 30,000 with analysis and the labor is about the same since you still have to change the filter and add makeup oil anyway, adding a few more quarts isn't going to take that much more time. I just don't see the convenience factor benefit of running oil beyond the oil filter change interval.
[ December 24, 2002, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Giles ]
I don't like the extended drain idea for 1 reason:
The amount of particle contaminants in the oil that are not filtered out keep going up and up as you drive. The dispersants in the oil suspend them, but unless you have a low/sub micron bypass filter they stay in the oil being pumped through the engine.
When I change my $1.10/qt Chevron dino oil @ 3500 miles (f150, 4.6v8, no trailer, no sub-zero starting), the level of fine particles goes back to 0 with the fresh oil. If you go 12,000 miles on your oil, you will have almost 4 times the amount of small micron particles in your oil that I ever have.
I wouldn't think of running oil for 7,500 miles without a bypass filter. And if you run a bypass filter, you need to add the cost of that in your changes too.
The down side is using a lot more oil over a year's time. There's a recycling station close by, all the oil gets recycled. I punch a hole and drain the filters, they go in a special bin too.
The amount of particle contaminants in the oil that are not filtered out keep going up and up as you drive. The dispersants in the oil suspend them, but unless you have a low/sub micron bypass filter they stay in the oil being pumped through the engine.
When I change my $1.10/qt Chevron dino oil @ 3500 miles (f150, 4.6v8, no trailer, no sub-zero starting), the level of fine particles goes back to 0 with the fresh oil. If you go 12,000 miles on your oil, you will have almost 4 times the amount of small micron particles in your oil that I ever have.
I wouldn't think of running oil for 7,500 miles without a bypass filter. And if you run a bypass filter, you need to add the cost of that in your changes too.
The down side is using a lot more oil over a year's time. There's a recycling station close by, all the oil gets recycled. I punch a hole and drain the filters, they go in a special bin too.
Correct, however, no one knows and no studies have been done that show at what level of a wear metal or contaminate does it become a factor in more wear. So, 5 ppm of iron at 3000 miles is fine and, with normal wear at 9000 miles 15 ppm would be fine also, just normal wear. However, what we don't know is if that 15ppm will cause additional wear or at what level the particle count does cause wear. No one knows and I have seen no studies. These particles may just be too small to cause wear. Most people play it safe and change the oil. Now if the iron was 25 ppm of iron at 15,000 miles and silicon low that could also be great, normal wear and not due to dirt. Very very much an art!
Question:
Is it true that the OEM extended drain intervals by BMW and M-B are "ONLY" when performed by their authorized service centers and their technicians?
Supposedly, they have a way to keep any contaminents out when doing the oil changes. I guess that means they use a total vacumn?
This was told to me by a guy that said I was crazy for going 12k miles using Amsoil. He said extended drains were only possible under the above condition. Closed non-contaminent environment.
Comments Please?
Is it true that the OEM extended drain intervals by BMW and M-B are "ONLY" when performed by their authorized service centers and their technicians?
Supposedly, they have a way to keep any contaminents out when doing the oil changes. I guess that means they use a total vacumn?
This was told to me by a guy that said I was crazy for going 12k miles using Amsoil. He said extended drains were only possible under the above condition. Closed non-contaminent environment.
Comments Please?
Sounds like BS to me.
No. BMW and M-B seem to make the recommendations as any other manufacturer does. It's just recent that M-B has made specs. and stricter recommendations to abide by these specs. Otherwise there wouldn't have been the lawsuit that was posted last week re: the wrong oil being used for the 12k intervals leading to engine damage. My recent call to the M-B dealership said they used M-1 5-30 for all the cars...this oil doesn't meet any M-B specs.
Same with BMW...they recommend their Castrol procured 5-30, but say you could top-up with M-1 or Valvoline synth. when necessary or not available.
Same with BMW...they recommend their Castrol procured 5-30, but say you could top-up with M-1 or Valvoline synth. when necessary or not available.
Lubes-n-Greases Automotive Editor David McFall, once with the American Petroleum Institute recently tackled the issue of extended drain intervals in his March column, criticizing the standard 3,000-mile oil change and referring to the American motor oil market as "shackled."
It seems like "miles" (or KM) is possibly the worst yardstick (or meter stick) to use when discussing oil change intervals. I mean, each of us could drive 50 miles and they'd be completely different (50 trips to the Packy & back in February) or a 50 mile trip on spotless roads with no traffic in April.
That's why I like the IDEA of the GM oil change calculator - of course whether it is programmed reasonably is another question!
I think setting an interval based on an arbitrary mileage point is meaningless unless you have found that mileage point for yourself through experimentation and analysis. Assuming the conditions were held relatively constant in each run of course...
That's why I like the IDEA of the GM oil change calculator - of course whether it is programmed reasonably is another question!
I think setting an interval based on an arbitrary mileage point is meaningless unless you have found that mileage point for yourself through experimentation and analysis. Assuming the conditions were held relatively constant in each run of course...
I have heard the "particle build up" theory argument against extending changes beyond 3K miles. This theory has been solidly killed by oil analysis. The oil will die (no BN, oxidative death - and/or viscosity toast hi/lo) long before there is too much suspended crud....sure there have been a very few gasoline engine UOA with Fe, etc in the 100's after 20K miles - but look at the oil - toast!
My turbo requires the the 9-10K changes also. Amsoil goes this distance every time, less wear than dino, less hassle (more time with family) - the money is a wash. UOA proved this - I don't need to do the analysis ($18.95) much any more and the current Auto-Rx session is finding nothing to clean. I actually don't mind changing oil - in the SUMMER. It friggen sux in the winter!!!!!! Every 3K? NO STINKIN'WAY!! What a waste.
My turbo requires the the 9-10K changes also. Amsoil goes this distance every time, less wear than dino, less hassle (more time with family) - the money is a wash. UOA proved this - I don't need to do the analysis ($18.95) much any more and the current Auto-Rx session is finding nothing to clean. I actually don't mind changing oil - in the SUMMER. It friggen sux in the winter!!!!!! Every 3K? NO STINKIN'WAY!! What a waste.
I actually like changing the oil in my cars.
My wife has a 99 Subaru Legacy and whoever designed the oil pan and filter location on the newer Soobs deserves a Noble prize. The filter goes into the flat four block vertically. No angles, no dirty oil running down the side of the engine and it is only 10 inches away from the drain plug. I don't even have to move the drain pan!
My 4runner has 2 skidplates which need to be removed which is a pain. This is one reason I switched to Mobil1 and Redline with K&N filters.
I also have a Nissan truck that is somewhere between these two in terms of ease of changing.
My wife has a 99 Subaru Legacy and whoever designed the oil pan and filter location on the newer Soobs deserves a Noble prize. The filter goes into the flat four block vertically. No angles, no dirty oil running down the side of the engine and it is only 10 inches away from the drain plug. I don't even have to move the drain pan!
My 4runner has 2 skidplates which need to be removed which is a pain. This is one reason I switched to Mobil1 and Redline with K&N filters.
I also have a Nissan truck that is somewhere between these two in terms of ease of changing.
I'm lazy like some of the other folks here & don't like to change oil every 3000-4000 miles. I don't trust swifty lube folks with my vehicles so I use Amsoil for extended drains. I found with Amsoil a 1-2mpg increase which needs to be factored into the cost equation. I also don't run 25000-35000 mile drains like they advertise because the cost of filters & analysis start to get expensive. Amsoil gets beaten up for making this claim but it can be done in ideal conditions, with Amsoil. Even with ideal conditions, dinos & group 3 synthetics couldn't even come close. I currently run around 10000-12000 drains because I had 1 analysis done to prove it & that should be enough till I put a lot more miles on the engine. Extended drains are a choice of convenience for me because I think the cost is about a wash. If I had an engine that needed a 3000 mile change for mechanical reasons, I would do it. But since I don't, I'll continue with extending my drains.
I enjoy the topic alot, I have done the extended drain with amsoil and the bypass filter and the oil anaylsis. I think for the mileage I put on my vehicles it's not worth it . I can't justify the extra cost. And if I have to change the oil filter and lube it at 6 months I may as well change the oil . Seems that when lead was removed from the gasoline it made the oil alot happier then feul injection came along and it was good but the bad part is the heat if you notice alot of cars have oil coolers I don't know if the oil gets too hot or it allows lighter visc. oil. but there are alot of engines that cook oil in regular use . Got off topic.... the amount of oil used is a drop in the bucket compared to the gaso line used and oil can be recycled so that is not good reason for extended drains . And changing the oil more often drains out all the crud and there will be less deposits. But then if you drive alot of miles then I can understand and would use an appropriate oil. I do 6 month oil changes which is about 4,000 to 5,000 miles petro or syn. Iknow I,m wasting good syn oil but the cost of analysis to check on the oil is not worth it I'd rather have clean oil.
It's hard for me to say yes or no to extending drains I will have to give my best answere it depends.
[ May 13, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
It's hard for me to say yes or no to extending drains I will have to give my best answere it depends.
[ May 13, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
(1) Mercedes-Benz doesn't monitor the oil. It merely calculates how long it should last based upon your driving style (10,000 miles minimum to 20,000 miles maximum).
(2) The oil filter is falling apart, because the oil is getting destroyed and turning acidic and eating the filter!
(3) MB was sued by customers because engines are sludging. MB made the mistake of recommending natural/conventional oils in the manual, when customers should have been using synthetics (costly mistake!).
re: AMSoil only recommends 35,000 *with a bypass filter* which removes the dirt. Does anyone here have a bypass filter? How long does your AMSoil last?
I don't believe this is true. They state on the Series 2000 that oil is good for one year or 35,000 whichever comes first with an Amsoil filter every 12,500 miles (or six months whichever comes first) or a non Amsoil filter at manufacturer recommended intervals To go beyond one year requires oil analysis. They do not mention a bypass filter in their longevity statement or warranty.
[ May 20, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]
True, psychiatric especially.
I've gone back and forth on oils and all of this extended drain talk but when you look at all the UOA's, we don't see to many great 12K + miles reports. Terry has stated:
[ May 20, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Giles I have Trasko bypass filter system. It is a full flow and bypass in one case. THe full flow is mesh screens the bypass system is based on modified Frantz design. My oil filter cartridges cost $9.95 and only need changeing every 10,000 miles or 1 year. The screens are cleaned with solvent. I sample my oil becaue I sample my oil so their is no extra cost their. My wifes truck will be lucky to hit 5000-7000 miles in years time. But one oil change in that time frame is alot better then 3-4. I buy M1 at Walmart or Sam's club for $3.88 a quart. So in here truck I am looking at filter cartridge $10.00, Oil $18.00 total $28.00 a year. I drive her truck once or twice a week to work to keep the battery charged and oil at temp. I drive 80 mile round trip at 80MPH every day.
This seems like a good place to post this.
Can I get a recommendation from you about my brothers intended useage?
He has a '99 bmw M3. He added a Vortech supercharger kit. He has 50k
trouble free miles on the car.
He uses and wants to continue to use Amsoil.
His cars stock srvc interval is about 9000 miles based on a system of lights. He uses the Amsoil 10w40 hi performance oil . Now, lately, he only drives the car about 7000 miles/year. So it would take 15 mos to go the whole 9k srvc light cycle. He plans to use the oil for the 9000 miles, with a filter change half way. He's aware of the 12 mo recommendation / 25k mile interval. But since the miles are so low, and since he will be changing the filter half way, do you see any reason he cant go 15 mos instead, so he can adhere to the srvc light interval? He had an analysis done at 5k miles, and it seemed to indicate he can go alot further.
Thanks
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'99 White M3
Can I get a recommendation from you about my brothers intended useage?
He has a '99 bmw M3. He added a Vortech supercharger kit. He has 50k
trouble free miles on the car.
He uses and wants to continue to use Amsoil.
His cars stock srvc interval is about 9000 miles based on a system of lights. He uses the Amsoil 10w40 hi performance oil . Now, lately, he only drives the car about 7000 miles/year. So it would take 15 mos to go the whole 9k srvc light cycle. He plans to use the oil for the 9000 miles, with a filter change half way. He's aware of the 12 mo recommendation / 25k mile interval. But since the miles are so low, and since he will be changing the filter half way, do you see any reason he cant go 15 mos instead, so he can adhere to the srvc light interval? He had an analysis done at 5k miles, and it seemed to indicate he can go alot further.
Thanks
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'99 White M3
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