Castrol GTX vs Mobil 1
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amsoil
Facts are facts, synthetic lubricants outperform conventional. There are benefits to gain even using short OCIs. I use M1 and 5k OCIs for my Matrix. It is only 20 bucks difference per oil change. There is nothing wrong with using dino for a 5k OCI but synthetic would be better.......
Lets see.
You admit that conventional will do fine for 5k ocis. You are correct.
Your statement of "its only $20 more per OCI" is;
$20 times 40 OCIs (for 200k miles) is $800.
$800 is OVER 10,000 (TEN THOUSAND) miles of gas. (at $3 a gallon)
And in the end, the person who runs the syn vs the guy who runs the conventional is the same. Both made 200k with no issues. And will continue beyond.
You just paid more. Take it out to 400k (which is my goal and I will make it) and you WILL have spent OVER 10% of the cost of the car MORE than me.
To each their own. Over 30 years and MANY engines making WELL past 200k (and some of those are not highway commuter use) with yesterdays conventional oils I am not worried at the least with todays BETTER conventional oil.
I'll agree to disagree.
Bill
PS: My commute is down to 100 miles RT. New Job..
How long does that '08 Civic take to get to 5000 miles?
My advice would be to use PP on 5K changes and not worry about it.
One real advantage of even grp III syns is less deposit formation.
For the small incremental cost, give your engine something known to be good. A little overkill never hurt anything, especially if it's fairly cheap.
One real advantage of even grp III syns is less deposit formation.
For the small incremental cost, give your engine something known to be good. A little overkill never hurt anything, especially if it's fairly cheap.
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I`m totally with you on that one. The way I see it,if you`re going to spend thousands of hard earned dollars on a car,the extra couple of bucks on the best lubricants should never be a factor. Like you said,synths flow better when cold,plus they hold up better when hot. My classic layman`s dino vs synth oil comparison was pulling out the dipstick on 2 hot engines. One using dino and the other synth. The hot synth felt oily and slippery while the dino felt like hot water.
Ok, Lets take this one by one...
Here is a UOA.
Castrol GTX 5w-30 5.8k miles.
Notice the CONSISTANT BELOW FREEZING temps for over a month during the OCI. Notice the FACT of the car sitting outside OVERNIGHT in single digits EVERY night for over 12 hours. (I get off work at 05:00am. The coldest time of the day)
Please show me the wear.
Above I did the math for actual prices for oil you can buy today. Could you please show me how your getting oil that costs twice as much only adding $2 to your oil change cost?
I'm sure others would like to know!
I showed the TOTAL cost for 200k miles doing my math.
There is a factual test! I'd only run syn too... (HOT Syn feels like oil while HOT conventional feels like water)
Just like your test that the temps under the hood were "cooler" when you run syn. Still waiting for your answer on what test methods you used to come up with that statement.
This board started with people posting factual info.
Not marketing or folks justifing why they spend $$ for something they don't need.
If you like to run this brand or that, its fine. But please lets just state that. Remember that there are a lot of folks who read this and take more things posted as facts.
Bill
This cost argument is really frustrating. Like Bill said, most people don't pay only $2 more for synth. In general synth is 2x more expensive. Like Bill said, the cost difference IS significant.
Moreover, if your really do have $10 or $20 bucks to spare, please spend it on a better higher quality food. Treat your OWN engine (heart) to a better diet BEFORE your car. Which one is more important??????
Now Bill, your UOA may not be typical. Consdier your driving pattern and what those 5.8k miles consist of. I believe you do a lot of highway driving, which of course is much easier on an engine. Many people on the other hand do more city plus use congested highways, so tend to get stuck in traffic more. This is especially true in winter with bad weather. So most people encounter a severe service during winter. Again, your roads might be better, less traffic and congestion, not sure.
For example, I drive 80% highway. Yet on bad days (snow/ice) my commute can double timewise. Thus my engine actually ends up working twice as long for the same distance covered, often with more acceleration and breaking. Sometimes I get stuck behind a salt truck, so back to 2nd gear. And so on.
The point is that engine generally works harder during winter due to inclement weather. There is more moisture, salt. It is probably safer to go with synthetic or a blend and avoid having to change my oil at freezing temps in the middle of the winter.
While you UOAs are great, I am not sure that they are the proof of Castrol being able to handle winter driving for others.
Of course, it depends on how cold it gets, how much snow, rain, etc. Some people, maybe most drivers in US would do fine with dino like Castrol. Still, northern states like NY, Maine, Vermont, etc. as well as Canada probably could use more synthetic oil.
Again, do use synthetic FOR A REASON, and not just because it is a couple of bucks more!!!!
Moreover, if your really do have $10 or $20 bucks to spare, please spend it on a better higher quality food. Treat your OWN engine (heart) to a better diet BEFORE your car. Which one is more important??????
Now Bill, your UOA may not be typical. Consdier your driving pattern and what those 5.8k miles consist of. I believe you do a lot of highway driving, which of course is much easier on an engine. Many people on the other hand do more city plus use congested highways, so tend to get stuck in traffic more. This is especially true in winter with bad weather. So most people encounter a severe service during winter. Again, your roads might be better, less traffic and congestion, not sure.
For example, I drive 80% highway. Yet on bad days (snow/ice) my commute can double timewise. Thus my engine actually ends up working twice as long for the same distance covered, often with more acceleration and breaking. Sometimes I get stuck behind a salt truck, so back to 2nd gear. And so on.
The point is that engine generally works harder during winter due to inclement weather. There is more moisture, salt. It is probably safer to go with synthetic or a blend and avoid having to change my oil at freezing temps in the middle of the winter.
While you UOAs are great, I am not sure that they are the proof of Castrol being able to handle winter driving for others.
Of course, it depends on how cold it gets, how much snow, rain, etc. Some people, maybe most drivers in US would do fine with dino like Castrol. Still, northern states like NY, Maine, Vermont, etc. as well as Canada probably could use more synthetic oil.
Again, do use synthetic FOR A REASON, and not just because it is a couple of bucks more!!!!
You have a Corolla which has a smaller sump, like 3-4 qt, right? My Hondas also have smaller sumps, 3 qt. Don't we need to change our oil more often due to smaller oil capacity? 5k miles would be the most I would do, winter or summer.
Just to clarify, we see 0F and below for most of January and February. I see the 0F-32F range as a border between dino and synth. Below 0F there is a very good case for synthetic oil. Where do you see that threshold?
Just to clarify, we see 0F and below for most of January and February. I see the 0F-32F range as a border between dino and synth. Below 0F there is a very good case for synthetic oil. Where do you see that threshold?
The facts you have regurgitated are total B.S. You have proven you don't have a clue.
I would look at the temperature recommended charts .The honda uses 5w/20 oil? Well below 0
Quote:
Ok, Lets take this one by one...
Here is a UOA.
Castrol GTX 5w-30 5.8k miles.
Notice the CONSISTANT BELOW FREEZING temps for over a month during the OCI. Notice the FACT of the car sitting outside OVERNIGHT in single digits EVERY night for over 12 hours. (I get off work at 05:00am. The coldest time of the day)
Please show me the wear.
Thinner oils have less drag, therefore less friction and wear. This is fact. Syns of the same weight are thinner than dinos, hence my statement.
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
…...The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter…...
The Effects of Crankcase Oil Viscosity on Engine Friction at Low Temperatures, Cockbill et al:
…...By using lower viscosity oils there is less friction, improved cold weather starting, improved fuel economy, a savings of starting system components and less wear by increasing the rate of oil pressurization and flow in the upper oil galleries…….
Above I did the math for actual prices for oil you can buy today. Could you please show me how your getting oil that costs twice as much only adding $2 to your oil change cost?
Castrol GTX (dino) = $1.59 per qt. No rebate required.
Pen Platnium (syn) = $1.99 per qt. Rebate required.
$0.40 x 4 qts (per OCI) = $1.60 more per change.
3-4 OC per year = $4.80 - $6.40 more per year.
For my sacrifice of 1 cup of coffee in a 3 month period, I can recover the "additional costs" associated with syns. Pretty good deal IMO.
Hard to argue with those "facts" you presented.
The Effects of Crankcase Oil Viscosity on Engine Friction at Low Temperatures, Cockbill et al:
…...By using lower viscosity oils there is less friction, improved cold weather starting, improved fuel economy, a savings of starting system components and less wear by increasing the rate of oil pressurization and flow in the upper oil galleries…….
Dino base stock molecules are long carbon chains that are sensitive to stress and heat. Additionally, various paraffins that are contained in all petroleum products regardless of how well refined they are, cause oil to jell like a syrup at extremely cold temperatures. At the other end of the temperature spectrum, high engine temperatures and heavy loads cause these chains to break down and the base stock actually boils off causing a change of viscosity and the formulation of sludge. This can happen at temperatures as low as 230º F and by 250º F many petroleum oils are suffering significant breakdown.
Synthetic oils on the other hand are engineered specifically to provide all the lubricating properties that natural oil possesses, but none of the cold thickening or hot thinning properties of petroleum oil. Synthetics are made up of uniformly shaped molecules with shorter carbon chains which are much more resistant to heat and stress. Synthetics can withstand temperatures of 300ºF all day long and still protect your engine. In fact the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM) standard wear resistance tests are conducted at 302º F. In this test synthetic lubricants far out perform petroleum lubricants by factor of four to one and greater.
Synthetic oils on the other hand are engineered specifically to provide all the lubricating properties that natural oil possesses, but none of the cold thickening or hot thinning properties of petroleum oil. Synthetics are made up of uniformly shaped molecules with shorter carbon chains which are much more resistant to heat and stress. Synthetics can withstand temperatures of 300ºF all day long and still protect your engine. In fact the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM) standard wear resistance tests are conducted at 302º F. In this test synthetic lubricants far out perform petroleum lubricants by factor of four to one and greater.
Castrol GTX (dino) = $1.59 per qt. No rebate required.
Pen Platnium (syn) = $1.99 per qt. Rebate required.
$0.40 x 4 qts (per OCI) = $1.60 more per change.
3-4 OC per year = $4.80 - $6.40 more per year.
For my sacrifice of 1 cup of coffee in a 3 month period, I can recover the "additional costs" associated with syns. Pretty good deal IMO.
Either use rebates for both or not at all. If you can obtain rebates for PP then certainly can get them for GTX.
This comparison is not valid.
Listen guys....you can argue this all day long. Folks can live off of nothing but bread/corn and water. But some prefer a more rounded diet that includes all the food groups. Same with oil. Yes a fella can go a bazillion miles on a well maintained vehicle utilizing reasonable OCI's on conventional. Just like he can live off bread/corn and water.
These syn/dino "discussions" been going on since the late 70's. My observations on these discussions are this.
1. The average Joe Blow out there does not maintain his/her car worth a spit. Synthetics give these folks a much better return on investment due the additional add packs and TBN in synthetics.
2. In all climates I see synthetics providing better start up protection.
3. Synthetics provide a much better overall protection throughout the heat ranges up to the extremes. IMHO this is directly due the superior molecular structure and add packs over conventionals.
4. 3K OCI's in a well maintained/tuned motor not being subjected to "harsh" conditions. Conventionals will works just as well as synthetics.
5. Don't ever try and convince either side your oil is better than theirs
Just smile and change the subject real quick.
These syn/dino "discussions" been going on since the late 70's. My observations on these discussions are this.
1. The average Joe Blow out there does not maintain his/her car worth a spit. Synthetics give these folks a much better return on investment due the additional add packs and TBN in synthetics.
2. In all climates I see synthetics providing better start up protection.
3. Synthetics provide a much better overall protection throughout the heat ranges up to the extremes. IMHO this is directly due the superior molecular structure and add packs over conventionals.
4. 3K OCI's in a well maintained/tuned motor not being subjected to "harsh" conditions. Conventionals will works just as well as synthetics.
5. Don't ever try and convince either side your oil is better than theirs
Sarge,
I'd add one more bullet point here to your list. Lots of people cite a preference for synthetic for the kind of theoretical reasons cited above. With such high powered chemistry, you'd expect it to show lower wear than for dino oil. But then you have folks like Bill in Utah who have the data to show low wear rates, probably not significantly different than if he had used a high priced synthetic oil.
For a 5,000 mile oil change interval (or less), the evidence provided in the UOA section of this website doesn't show a significant advantage for synthetic over dino, in this man's opinion.
Synthetic seems to only really show a benefit for autos doing a long OCI (say up to 10,000 miles), there is a turbo involved, or if you are in bitter cold conditions. Feel free to continue the chemistry lecture about how the synethic just MUST be better, but I'd say Utah Bill is getting his money's worth.
I'd add one more bullet point here to your list. Lots of people cite a preference for synthetic for the kind of theoretical reasons cited above. With such high powered chemistry, you'd expect it to show lower wear than for dino oil. But then you have folks like Bill in Utah who have the data to show low wear rates, probably not significantly different than if he had used a high priced synthetic oil.
For a 5,000 mile oil change interval (or less), the evidence provided in the UOA section of this website doesn't show a significant advantage for synthetic over dino, in this man's opinion.
Synthetic seems to only really show a benefit for autos doing a long OCI (say up to 10,000 miles), there is a turbo involved, or if you are in bitter cold conditions. Feel free to continue the chemistry lecture about how the synethic just MUST be better, but I'd say Utah Bill is getting his money's worth.
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