Your comments on this are going to be interesting!
- Thread starter SteveHarper
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
Eh. Their "soft" prisons have worked for them. However, with large number of immigrants they are seeing, particularly from African countries and the rise in crime committed by them it remains to be seen how effective their "soft" penal system will be.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
Eh. Their "soft" prisons have worked for them. However, with large number of immigrants they are seeing, particularly from African countries and the rise in crime committed by them it remains to be seen how effective their "soft" penal system will be.
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
Eh. Their "soft" prisons have worked for them. However, with large number of immigrants they are seeing, particularly from African countries and the rise in crime committed by them it remains to be seen how effective their "soft" penal system will be.
What effect would the immigrants' African origin have on the effectiveness of the penal system? I suspect I know what you mean, but I hope I'm wrong.
Either way, this isn't a "soft" prison system. It's simply one that does a better job of recognizing the factors that shape human behavior. Rehabilitation isn't about being nice to people. It's about preventing people from re-offending.
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
Eh. Their "soft" prisons have worked for them. However, with large number of immigrants they are seeing, particularly from African countries and the rise in crime committed by them it remains to be seen how effective their "soft" penal system will be.
What effect would the immigrants' African origin have on the effectiveness of the penal system? I suspect I know what you mean, but I hope I'm wrong.
Either way, this isn't a "soft" prison system. It's simply one that does a better job of recognizing the factors that shape human behavior. Rehabilitation isn't about being nice to people. It's about preventing people from re-offending.
They must be doing something right. Norway has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
Buickman might have a point there. Someone who's lived most of their life in a different culture amongst people with different values may not gain the same benefit from exposure to an approximation of a normal Norwegian lifestyle. Then again, some might like it so much that it works even better for them. That's one of those things where you just have to wait and see.
I see your point.
As far as I can tell, the Norwegian prison system works for reasons that have to do with human nature, not culture. The point of it is to make people respect each other, not to make them better Norwegians. For someone's cultural background to undermine their ability to benefit from that system, that culture would have to be brainwashing its people to dislike anything recognizable as trust or cooperation. I know such cultures exist, but they are not exactly common.
As far as I can tell, the Norwegian prison system works for reasons that have to do with human nature, not culture. The point of it is to make people respect each other, not to make them better Norwegians. For someone's cultural background to undermine their ability to benefit from that system, that culture would have to be brainwashing its people to dislike anything recognizable as trust or cooperation. I know such cultures exist, but they are not exactly common.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I see your point.
As far as I can tell, the Norwegian prison system works for reasons that have to do with human nature, not culture. The point of it is to make people respect each other, not to make them better Norwegians. For someone's cultural background to undermine their ability to benefit from that system, that culture would have to be brainwashing its people to dislike anything recognizable as trust or cooperation. I know such cultures exist, but they are not exactly common.
Culture is everything when it comes to how the immigrants will respond to the penal system in Norway so stop with the "everybody's exactly the same - we're no different than anyone else" nonsense.
Now you mix in the fact that many of these immigrants are also Muslims and come from 3rd world African countries who's cultures are are completely foreign in every way to that of Norway and you get things like this....
Quote:
According to the NRK, police figures from Olso reveal that over the past three years, they have investigated a total of 41 cases of rape in that city. All of these assaults, reports NRK, were carried out by "non-western immigrants to Norway."
This was from July 2011.
Stop letting your PC Utopian Fantasyland mindset brush aside reality.
I see your point.
As far as I can tell, the Norwegian prison system works for reasons that have to do with human nature, not culture. The point of it is to make people respect each other, not to make them better Norwegians. For someone's cultural background to undermine their ability to benefit from that system, that culture would have to be brainwashing its people to dislike anything recognizable as trust or cooperation. I know such cultures exist, but they are not exactly common.
Culture is everything when it comes to how the immigrants will respond to the penal system in Norway so stop with the "everybody's exactly the same - we're no different than anyone else" nonsense.
Now you mix in the fact that many of these immigrants are also Muslims and come from 3rd world African countries who's cultures are are completely foreign in every way to that of Norway and you get things like this....
Quote:
According to the NRK, police figures from Olso reveal that over the past three years, they have investigated a total of 41 cases of rape in that city. All of these assaults, reports NRK, were carried out by "non-western immigrants to Norway."
This was from July 2011.
Stop letting your PC Utopian Fantasyland mindset brush aside reality.
But if it's only culture then why would the indigenous Norwegian inmates have committed crimes in the first place seeing that they lived in the Norwegian culture?
The prison wasn't set up for immigrants. It has been around for a long time.
In any case, I was hoping the comments would be about the merits of such an approach for rehabilitation vs punishment, not about Africans and Muslims being the root of all evil.
The prison wasn't set up for immigrants. It has been around for a long time.
In any case, I was hoping the comments would be about the merits of such an approach for rehabilitation vs punishment, not about Africans and Muslims being the root of all evil.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
stop with the "everybody's exactly the same - we're no different than anyone else" nonsense.
I never started with that nonsense so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to stop it. Maybe you should stop hearing it.
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Now you mix in the fact that many of these immigrants are also Muslims and come from 3rd world African countries who's cultures are are completely foreign in every way to that of Norway and you get things like this....
Quote:
According to the NRK, police figures from Olso reveal that over the past three years, they have investigated a total of 41 cases of rape in that city. All of these assaults, reports NRK, were carried out by "non-western immigrants to Norway."
This was from July 2011.
Still waiting for what you think CAUSES the connection between this kind of criminality and being African and/or Muslim, and for an explanation of WHY a reabilitation-based penal system won't work for people of those backgrounds.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, by the way. I have heard many arguments along the lines of what you're saying. The problem is that some of those arguments are perfectly reasonable, whereas others are nothing but xenophobic drivel. That's why I'm asking what YOUR reasons are.
stop with the "everybody's exactly the same - we're no different than anyone else" nonsense.
I never started with that nonsense so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to stop it. Maybe you should stop hearing it.
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Now you mix in the fact that many of these immigrants are also Muslims and come from 3rd world African countries who's cultures are are completely foreign in every way to that of Norway and you get things like this....
Quote:
According to the NRK, police figures from Olso reveal that over the past three years, they have investigated a total of 41 cases of rape in that city. All of these assaults, reports NRK, were carried out by "non-western immigrants to Norway."
This was from July 2011.
Still waiting for what you think CAUSES the connection between this kind of criminality and being African and/or Muslim, and for an explanation of WHY a reabilitation-based penal system won't work for people of those backgrounds.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, by the way. I have heard many arguments along the lines of what you're saying. The problem is that some of those arguments are perfectly reasonable, whereas others are nothing but xenophobic drivel. That's why I'm asking what YOUR reasons are.
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
In any case, I was hoping the comments would be about the merits of such an approach for rehabilitation vs punishment, not about Africans and Muslims being the root of all evil.
Here's something on-point, then.
I think the whole idea of retributive justice, while superficially satisfying to most people, needs to be outgrown. If we are truly interested in reducing crime and ensuring the integrity of society, we should adopt a more consequentialist perspective -- i.e. focus on what actually reduces crime rather than getting back at people who commit it. In that light, it seems Norway might be light-years ahead of us, and we might have some hard lessons to learn from them.
In any case, I was hoping the comments would be about the merits of such an approach for rehabilitation vs punishment, not about Africans and Muslims being the root of all evil.
Here's something on-point, then.
I think the whole idea of retributive justice, while superficially satisfying to most people, needs to be outgrown. If we are truly interested in reducing crime and ensuring the integrity of society, we should adopt a more consequentialist perspective -- i.e. focus on what actually reduces crime rather than getting back at people who commit it. In that light, it seems Norway might be light-years ahead of us, and we might have some hard lessons to learn from them.
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
But if it's only culture then why would the indigenous Norwegian inmates have committed crimes in the first place seeing that they lived in the Norwegian culture?
I understand this question wasn't directed at me and I don't mean to gang up on you but I feel a need to offer this:
This is an oil/lube forum. Mostly, we're people who are pretty familiar with machines of some sort or another. Now, have you ever seen a machine from a well respected manufacturer of a well-known reliable model that was just a total piece of garbage that never worked properly because it just wasn't built right in the factory? How about machines of the same model that were built just fine but from the very beginning were abused and neglected and ended up being very broken?
Do you think people can be like that? Do you think some of them can be fixed?
But if it's only culture then why would the indigenous Norwegian inmates have committed crimes in the first place seeing that they lived in the Norwegian culture?
I understand this question wasn't directed at me and I don't mean to gang up on you but I feel a need to offer this:
This is an oil/lube forum. Mostly, we're people who are pretty familiar with machines of some sort or another. Now, have you ever seen a machine from a well respected manufacturer of a well-known reliable model that was just a total piece of garbage that never worked properly because it just wasn't built right in the factory? How about machines of the same model that were built just fine but from the very beginning were abused and neglected and ended up being very broken?
Do you think people can be like that? Do you think some of them can be fixed?
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Now, have you ever seen a machine from a well respected manufacturer of a well-known reliable model that was just a total piece of garbage that never worked properly because it just wasn't built right in the factory? How about machines of the same model that were built just fine but from the very beginning were abused and neglected and ended up being very broken?
Do you think people can be like that? Do you think some of them can be fixed?
Yes, and yes. In fact, I'd replace "some" with "many."
Three caveats:
1. If we are going to use terms like "broken" and "fixed" with respect to human beings, we must remember that there's a lot more to it than those words suggest.
2. We have moral responsibilities to people and not to engines, which surely affects the calculus a bit.
3. There are many popular ideologies that currently oppose our advancing understanding of human nature; there is no such thing impeding our understanding of engines.
Adding: As time goes on and our sciences of mind and culture advance, the number of people we are able to "fix" will only increase. We will also be more and more able to prevent people from becoming "broken" in the first place.
Now, have you ever seen a machine from a well respected manufacturer of a well-known reliable model that was just a total piece of garbage that never worked properly because it just wasn't built right in the factory? How about machines of the same model that were built just fine but from the very beginning were abused and neglected and ended up being very broken?
Do you think people can be like that? Do you think some of them can be fixed?
Yes, and yes. In fact, I'd replace "some" with "many."
Three caveats:
1. If we are going to use terms like "broken" and "fixed" with respect to human beings, we must remember that there's a lot more to it than those words suggest.
2. We have moral responsibilities to people and not to engines, which surely affects the calculus a bit.
3. There are many popular ideologies that currently oppose our advancing understanding of human nature; there is no such thing impeding our understanding of engines.
Adding: As time goes on and our sciences of mind and culture advance, the number of people we are able to "fix" will only increase. We will also be more and more able to prevent people from becoming "broken" in the first place.
1 - There is no design spec for human beings so "broken" is is very subjective. Fixed is simply a matter of being no longer broken.
2 - This is why it can be worth expending several times more resources on trying to fix a broken one than it would cost to scrap him and make a new one. I can't argue with that.
3 - I think that's an oversimplification.
Still, I hope you're right on that last bit.
2 - This is why it can be worth expending several times more resources on trying to fix a broken one than it would cost to scrap him and make a new one. I can't argue with that.
3 - I think that's an oversimplification.
Still, I hope you're right on that last bit.
1. I agree that there's no spec, but we have to be careful about what we call subjective. "Broken" may be defined with respect to ideas that emerge from our subjective experience, but ultimately it is the result of certain facts about the world (the person's brain, their circumstances, their experiences, etc.), and can be assessed objectively in terms of how far away one is from whatever best- or worst-case scenario we define.
2. I agree with you on that point. I would only add that, properly accounting for all factors, I don't think rehabilitation necessarily nets a higher cost. The more resources you spend on an effective rehab program, the less you have to spend compensating for recidivism.
3. Simplification, I'll accept. Oversimplification, I'm happy to debate (although preferably by PM, since I suspect it'll cause us to run afoul of the RSP policy).
2. I agree with you on that point. I would only add that, properly accounting for all factors, I don't think rehabilitation necessarily nets a higher cost. The more resources you spend on an effective rehab program, the less you have to spend compensating for recidivism.
3. Simplification, I'll accept. Oversimplification, I'm happy to debate (although preferably by PM, since I suspect it'll cause us to run afoul of the RSP policy).
Originally Posted By: SteveHarper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
So why was "Lamin" even in Norway to begin with?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914
So why was "Lamin" even in Norway to begin with?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think the whole idea of retributive justice, while superficially satisfying to most people, needs to be outgrown. If we are truly interested in reducing crime and ensuring the integrity of society, we should adopt a more consequentialist perspective -- i.e. focus on what actually reduces crime rather than getting back at people who commit it.
Yes. And if we reduced crime, we would not be afraid as much, and wouldn't feel we needed the gov't to "protect" us. Also it would take so long, 5+ years for new stats, that it would be hard for the party in power to coincidentally still be there and take credit for it.
I think the whole idea of retributive justice, while superficially satisfying to most people, needs to be outgrown. If we are truly interested in reducing crime and ensuring the integrity of society, we should adopt a more consequentialist perspective -- i.e. focus on what actually reduces crime rather than getting back at people who commit it.
Yes. And if we reduced crime, we would not be afraid as much, and wouldn't feel we needed the gov't to "protect" us. Also it would take so long, 5+ years for new stats, that it would be hard for the party in power to coincidentally still be there and take credit for it.
I wonder how many of us here feel that criminals that spend time in North American prisons, proberbly come out better people?
There are some interesting comments from a U.K. Game show on YouTube
Search : QI American prisons.
Not that the U.K. Can talk, they still have overcrowded Victorian era prisons,
That don't seem to offer much in rehabilitation.
There are some interesting comments from a U.K. Game show on YouTube
Search : QI American prisons.
Not that the U.K. Can talk, they still have overcrowded Victorian era prisons,
That don't seem to offer much in rehabilitation.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Yes. And if we reduced crime, we would not be afraid as much, and wouldn't feel we needed the gov't to "protect" us. Also it would take so long, 5+ years for new stats, that it would be hard for the party in power to coincidentally still be there and take credit for it.
Well said, eljefino.
Yes. And if we reduced crime, we would not be afraid as much, and wouldn't feel we needed the gov't to "protect" us. Also it would take so long, 5+ years for new stats, that it would be hard for the party in power to coincidentally still be there and take credit for it.
Well said, eljefino.
- Status
Similar threads
