For how much, is the question.
$1k for a new car? Sure. $10k? maybe not.
$1k for a new car? Sure. $10k? maybe not.
Would you buy a car from Congress?
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kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
No, Kelpie's post is ridiculous.
Unions had their legitimate time in history, but I'll say it again for the umteenth time: You can not manufacture products with unskilled labor at roughly twice your competitors cost.
See exhibit A: The Big 3 whining for a bailout.
Unions had their legitimate time in history, but I'll say it again for the umteenth time: You can not manufacture products with unskilled labor at roughly twice your competitors cost.
See exhibit A: The Big 3 whining for a bailout.
Originally Posted By: yeti
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
Think how much better the Malibu could be, along with the Cobalt if there wasn't so much employee expense built into each one. The Cobalt SS is now a world-class performer in the sport compact arena, but it's still loaded with rental-fleet plastic and saddled with uninspired styling. Adding $2000 to the materials budget for that car would help it trump the current leader in its segment...the Mazdaspeed 3. GM can't afford to be content with being 'as good' or 'almost as good' when they're asking the same price as the imports. They have to position themselves to be better. But I'll admit that some of their products have come a long way..(Look at the previous Malibu...UGH!).
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: yeti
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
If they won praise from Motor Trend, then they have to be good. Just look at some of MT's great picks from the past.
Some MT's Car of the Year Awards.
1997 Chevrolet Malibu
1995 Chrysler Cirrus
1993 Ford Probe GT
1987 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries / Plymouth Reliant
1980 Chevrolet Citation
1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni / Plymouth Horizon
1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen / Plymouth Volare
1975 Chevrolet Monza 2+2
1974 Ford Mustang II
1972 Citroën SM (An imported vehicle that was selected overall "Car of the Year")
1971 Chevrolet Vega
1970 Ford Torino
1963 American MotorsRambler
1961 Pontiac Tempest
1960 Chevrolet Corvair
Originally Posted By: yeti
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
If they won praise from Motor Trend, then they have to be good. Just look at some of MT's great picks from the past.
Some MT's Car of the Year Awards.
1997 Chevrolet Malibu
1995 Chrysler Cirrus
1993 Ford Probe GT
1987 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries / Plymouth Reliant
1980 Chevrolet Citation
1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni / Plymouth Horizon
1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen / Plymouth Volare
1975 Chevrolet Monza 2+2
1974 Ford Mustang II
1972 Citroën SM (An imported vehicle that was selected overall "Car of the Year")
1971 Chevrolet Vega
1970 Ford Torino
1963 American MotorsRambler
1961 Pontiac Tempest
1960 Chevrolet Corvair
They weren't good when compared to today's cars, but they must have been better than their competitors.
What's wrong with the '87 Turbo Coupe? I loved that car.
What's wrong with the '87 Turbo Coupe? I loved that car.
1987 Turbo Coupe T-Bird was a good car until the motor invariably blew up.
MT used to run a separate Import car of the year. They should bring that back. Not like it matters, I never base my buying on what Motor trend or Car and Driver think.
MT used to run a separate Import car of the year. They should bring that back. Not like it matters, I never base my buying on what Motor trend or Car and Driver think.
Originally Posted By: kingrob
1987 Turbo Coupe T-Bird was a good car until the motor invariably blew up.
You're being too picky
"Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play."
Quote:
MT used to run a separate Import car of the year. They should bring that back. Not like it matters, I never base my buying on what Motor trend or Car and Driver think.
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
1987 Turbo Coupe T-Bird was a good car until the motor invariably blew up.
You're being too picky
"Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play."
Quote:
MT used to run a separate Import car of the year. They should bring that back. Not like it matters, I never base my buying on what Motor trend or Car and Driver think.
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
Quote:
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
Quote:
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
C&D does seem to wade through the garbage over MT. I remember reading through both mags review of the same Kia model. Motor Trend gave it high marks for being lightweight and having six cup holders, and C&D gave it low marks for being noticeably heavier than other cars in that class and handling like a horse and buggy.
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
C&D does seem to wade through the garbage over MT. I remember reading through both mags review of the same Kia model. Motor Trend gave it high marks for being lightweight and having six cup holders, and C&D gave it low marks for being noticeably heavier than other cars in that class and handling like a horse and buggy.
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
Originally Posted By: kingrob
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
+1, not that having some rebellious hipness in you rold age is all bad
Once you know their world view, you can make sense of what C&D writers say and get useful information from it.
MT is flakey and I suspect strongly influenced by Car of The Year manufacturers. If they aren't, they are just plain incompetent.
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
+1, not that having some rebellious hipness in you rold age is all bad
Once you know their world view, you can make sense of what C&D writers say and get useful information from it.
MT is flakey and I suspect strongly influenced by Car of The Year manufacturers. If they aren't, they are just plain incompetent.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: yeti
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
The latest FACT:
Those numbers were during the stampede to purchase small cars thanks to high fuel prices. If Forbes can be believed here are the numbers as of the first week of December -
2008 sales (first 11 months):
No. 1 Ford F-Series - 473,933
No. 2 Chevrolet Silverado - 431,725
No. 3 Toyota Camry - 411,342
No. 4 Honda Civic - 352,248
No. 5 Honda Accord - 350,638
No. 6 Toyota Corolla/Matrix - 328,878
No. 7 Nissan Altima - 252,357
No. 8 Chevrolet Impala - 244,692
No. 9 Dodge Ram - 229,222
No. 10 Ford Focus - 184,152
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/best-ca...thisSpeed=30000
People buy small cars when they believe they're being forced into it financially. If fuel is < $3+- a gallon they're a lot less interested.
That also explains why Prius and other "green" cars sales dropped by about 1/2 in October/November...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/us-sales-of-hyb.html
Originally Posted By: yeti
kelpie's recent post is excellent.in case this hasn't been posted -- a michigan guy started a website re: the alabama senator opposing the big 3 loan. interesting. http://www.boycottalabamanow.com
That is a bunch of horse manure.
"Fact: The Big Three do build the right products. Many 2009 domestic models have received many awards. In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend’s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists."
Try again. FACT: the Honda Civic passed the Ford F150 as the best selling car in America; the next best selling vehicles past the F150 being the Accord, Camry, and Corolla.
The latest FACT:
Those numbers were during the stampede to purchase small cars thanks to high fuel prices. If Forbes can be believed here are the numbers as of the first week of December -
2008 sales (first 11 months):
No. 1 Ford F-Series - 473,933
No. 2 Chevrolet Silverado - 431,725
No. 3 Toyota Camry - 411,342
No. 4 Honda Civic - 352,248
No. 5 Honda Accord - 350,638
No. 6 Toyota Corolla/Matrix - 328,878
No. 7 Nissan Altima - 252,357
No. 8 Chevrolet Impala - 244,692
No. 9 Dodge Ram - 229,222
No. 10 Ford Focus - 184,152
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/best-ca...thisSpeed=30000
People buy small cars when they believe they're being forced into it financially. If fuel is < $3+- a gallon they're a lot less interested.
That also explains why Prius and other "green" cars sales dropped by about 1/2 in October/November...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/us-sales-of-hyb.html
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Quote:
Those numbers were during the stampede to purchase small cars thanks to high fuel prices.
Indeed. $1 gas will end that trend real quick.
Those numbers were during the stampede to purchase small cars thanks to high fuel prices.
Indeed. $1 gas will end that trend real quick.
Originally Posted By: kingrob
Quote:
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
C&D does seem to wade through the garbage over MT. I remember reading through both mags review of the same Kia model. Motor Trend gave it high marks for being lightweight and having six cup holders, and C&D gave it low marks for being noticeably heavier than other cars in that class and handling like a horse and buggy.
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
I think the rest of the world looks at cars differently than we do. As a car enthusiast, small and fast ARE great characteristics. If you want to go around corners fast, then small and light are important characteristic.
You can make large and heavy do that, but few do.
Most Americans are not car enthusiasts. They are STATUS enthusiasts and buy into the lie that your self esteem is tied into what you own, both foreign or domestically produced.
How else can you explain why folks buy large Ford, GM, Chrysler and Toyota SUV's. They all swill gas and have to slow well below the recommended speeds for any curve.
Most are not loaded up with 7 or 8 people. Most I see are carrying only 12-14% of their passenger capacity. (While my car is typically at 25%)
That's what most folks want.
But those folks are not car enthusiasts for the most part.
If you want an SUV and can afford it, great.
If you want a small sporty car, great.
Like it was said before, understand the bias of the author and take what you find useful.
A magazine like Car and Driver or Road and Track will be geared towards those who prefer the small, light, sporty car for the most part. I wouldn't expect a truck to get the same coverage as a car. Just like I wouldn't expect cars to get top billing in any truck publication.
Quote:
I can't find anything useful in MT. I may not agree with a lot of C&D opinions, but they are useful if you can read between the lines.
C&D does seem to wade through the garbage over MT. I remember reading through both mags review of the same Kia model. Motor Trend gave it high marks for being lightweight and having six cup holders, and C&D gave it low marks for being noticeably heavier than other cars in that class and handling like a horse and buggy.
The main problem I have with C&D is that most, if not all, of the tenured writers seem like middle aged teenagers trying to still assert their rebellious hipness. Over at C&D, if it's not small, imported and fast, then it's a piece of junk.
I think the rest of the world looks at cars differently than we do. As a car enthusiast, small and fast ARE great characteristics. If you want to go around corners fast, then small and light are important characteristic.
You can make large and heavy do that, but few do.
Most Americans are not car enthusiasts. They are STATUS enthusiasts and buy into the lie that your self esteem is tied into what you own, both foreign or domestically produced.
How else can you explain why folks buy large Ford, GM, Chrysler and Toyota SUV's. They all swill gas and have to slow well below the recommended speeds for any curve.
Most are not loaded up with 7 or 8 people. Most I see are carrying only 12-14% of their passenger capacity. (While my car is typically at 25%)
That's what most folks want.
But those folks are not car enthusiasts for the most part.
If you want an SUV and can afford it, great.
If you want a small sporty car, great.
Like it was said before, understand the bias of the author and take what you find useful.
A magazine like Car and Driver or Road and Track will be geared towards those who prefer the small, light, sporty car for the most part. I wouldn't expect a truck to get the same coverage as a car. Just like I wouldn't expect cars to get top billing in any truck publication.
The people that get me are the ones that buy a fully loaded BMW 335i because it's a BMW...not because it's one of the best performance cars in the world. The price tag along with the BMW emblem is their only reason for the purchase, which IMO is such a waste. A friend-of-a-friend got a huge promotion and was in the market for a new car. No matter which direction I tried to steer her, she just insisted on a BMW 330i even though she could care less about the performance aspects of the car. I suspect she has no idea what it can really do. So she's paying $40K and slugging to and from work in a car that begs to be turned loose. Cars as status symbols is criminal to me.
People who know nothing about what makes a car perform well would be better served by driving Camrys and Accords. But nobody ever claimed that the American consumer is smart.
People who know nothing about what makes a car perform well would be better served by driving Camrys and Accords. But nobody ever claimed that the American consumer is smart.
Why don't they just give the money to us to spend on an American car. They need to sell product. They don't need Govt oversight. :2cents:
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