What IS different about starters used in auto start/stop equipped engines?

[kschachn]

On the other hand, the intake manifold on my BMW is probably the only piece of plastic under the hood that hasn't broken.

Also the fact that it is dry makes it a lot easier to remove during the frequent water pump (and transfer pipe) replacements.

 

[partspro]

this is not about saving gas !!! its about pollution and emissions . imagine if you will i million vehicles world wide, an overstatement i know total pollution massive. btw i spent almost 20 mins behind a big ass truck and including my car waiting to make a deposit f a 47 buck check. of covid and the fact i just had a stroke and use a wheelchair meant that a two minute tripinto the bank pucked out 20 mins of chocking yuck, afaik some so called starters are not traditional but incorporated into the flywheel

 

[partspro]

On plastic intakes they don’t fail in my prior 2005 Subaru Legacy turbo wagon with 250HP. We sold running fine with 235k miles over 14 years without an intake issue.

more blowing smoke beyond starters and batteries.....Just make it up.

Please note starter did fail in 5 years on our Subaru and it was driven 30k per year mostly highly (not many cycles). However by your measure our 2018 Tiguan with auto start/stop would be through a battery and starter now at 68k. Guess what it is not. 10 mins of daily commute is likely 5-10 start stop cycles in stop/go traffic.

i totally agree it's not about gas saving, it's about saving our planet !! it's pollution savings.
my journey just today included lights that cycled in the 2plus min time frame and a tunnel under an airport runway can you say cough !!

 

[nthach]

However by your measure our 2018 Tiguan with auto start/stop would be through a battery and starter now at 68k. Guess what it is not. 10 mins of daily commute is likely 5-10 start stop cycles in stop/go traffic.

PMGR starters and AGM batteries make start-stop possible. I’m not a fan of it as I see it as an annoyance but the starters are made smaller, lighter and more robust than older direct-drive starters.

Toyota was using Denso’s offset reduction starters that was a radical design compared to the Bosch or Delco-based starters that were common. I think Hitachi or Mitsubishi Electric created the first PMGR starter.

 

[2EHA]

PMGR starters and AGM batteries make start-stop possible. I’m not a fan of it as I see it as an annoyance but the starters are made smaller, lighter and more robust than older direct-drive starters.

Toyota was using Denso’s offset reduction starters that was a radical design compared to the Bosch or Delco-based starters that were common. I think Hitachi or Mitsubishi Electric created the first PMGR starter.

Denso OSGR starters are basically a better version of the old mopar starters and naturally sound the same. The old Honda startup is one great example.

 

[nthach]

The old Honda startup is one great example.

I remember the old Honda sound - still hear it from the CR-V and Civics before they switched over to the turbo 1.5.

Honda tends to use Mitsuba starters without solenoids. Motorcycles that aren’t a Harley, BMW or British/Italian sound almost like when being cranked over - the directly coupled Mitsuba starter is commonly used on Japanese bikes.

 

[Crash Bandicoot]

Not much about new cars makes me that upset, I mostly drive domestic or Asian SUVs and Pickup trucks priced in the normal human price range so they’re pretty easy to work on (BOF trucks are usually super easy). One thing about auto stop start that drives me up a wall is that you can’t just disable it and it’s disabled until you elect to turn it on again. I live in Arizona, when it’s 115° outside and I stop at a light I sure as hell can feel the A/C drop off quite rapidly when the engine shuts off. I don’t care during the winter but it would be really annoying to have to hit another button for no reason every time I get in the car during the summer. I drive mostly highway/rural though so the fuel savings and the system as a whole has a limited impact on me.

 

[javacontour]

Recent new tech on BITOG. Translation-I'm scared and running the other way.....

Or they just don’t want to be an early adopter. Let it get worked out and then I’ll buy one.

I may get a car with an automatic transmission soon. They are probably close to perfecting that new technology.

 

[spasm3]

Or they just don’t want to be an early adopter. Let it get worked out and then I’ll buy one.

I may get a car with an automatic transmission soon. They are probably close to perfecting that new technology.

Close to perfecting it, but still a bit of side fumbling.

 

[OppositeLocK]

What else drives you nuts? A push button for the ignition? Electric parking brake? Automatic high beams?

All unnecessary that add nothing but a lot of cost for little value.

Electric parking brake and automatic high beams are absolutely unnecessary.

Keyless start is fairly nice though.

 

[javacontour]

Never seen an intake manifold get brittle and fail all on its own,

You’ve never had a 4.6L Ford V8 with the plastic intake manifold with the plastic coolant crossover that gets brittle and fails, dumping your coolant all over...
a very common failure.

The replacement manifold had an aluminum coolant crossover.

 

[Driz]

All three are annoying to me. Don't have automatic high beams though.

I agree . Just more $$$$ to break down I do have auto hi beams on the Camray and absolutely love them.

 

[bbhero]

All unnecessary that add nothing but a lot of cost for little value.

Electric parking brake and automatic high beams are absolutely unnecessary.

Keyless start is fairly nice though.

Exactly right ^^^^^^^^

I thought my headlights and housings were expensive... $800 for a housing and $100 for a hid bulb. So if both sides needed to be replaced... $1,800 not counting labor... $2,000. . Including labor.

And that is cheap now compared to vehicles with LED lights and massively expensive housings that are way more than mine. This compared to headlights that used to be quite cheap... And bulbs that were cheap too... My lady's Camry bulbs cost just $20 at most a piece.

Vehicles will now likely be totalled.... From front end damage that used to be not such a big deal... But now it is... Due to expensive housings and headlights.

Add that plus radiator damage and other front end damage like front valence damage and other ancillary parts... And possible airbag use or damage... And they will be totalled. A airbag in my 08 Ford Fusion would have cost $3,000 dollars... I hit a deer going 64 mph... $7,000 worth of damage. A new radiator needed, new hood, new front valence, new right quarter panel and obviously new right front headlight housing and new airbag on the right side... The abs light came on and stayed on... I knew it was messes up or should have deployed and yet it didn't. It caused the car to be totalled.

 

[mightymousetech]

They idle at the lowest RPM that gives good vacuum. In the old days of carbs they'd set the idle with a vacuum meter trying for a high reading. This is a function of cam timing/ shaping physics and having a car that's efficient at medium RPM and load.

Drop the RPM below this point and vacuum drops QUICKLY, and the fuel system thinks that's because the engine's under power demands and gives way more fuel. Sometimes you'd find an angry old man that messes with his carb trying for a lower idle to "save gas" and he'd be fouling plugs, stalling, and generally being miserable while being "smarter" than anyone around him.

As a BMW tech, what the hell is engine vacuum? It’s not the 70’s anymore.

 

[AutoMechanic]

What else drives you nuts? A push button for the ignition? Electric parking brake? Automatic high beams?

Absolutely all of them for me lol. I remember the first time I had to put a push button start in a car gosh that was a pain and have had to do a couple more since then. Never had to replace a electric parking brake but have used it and it sucks. Automatic high beams well that’s a good way to blind someone on accident.

 

[CKN]

Exactly right ^^^^^^^^

I thought my headlights and housings were expensive... $800 for a housing and $100 for a hid bulb. So if both sides needed to be replaced... $1,800 not counting labor... $2,000. . Including labor.

And that is cheap now compared to vehicles with LED lights and massively expensive housings that are way more than mine. This compared to headlights that used to be quite cheap... And bulbs that were cheap too... My lady's Camry bulbs cost just $20 at most a piece.

Vehicles will now likely be totalled.... From front end damage that used to be not such a big deal... But now it is... Due to expensive housings and headlights.

Add that plus radiator damage and other front end damage like front valence damage and other ancillary parts... And possible airbag use or damage... And they will be totalled. A airbag in my 08 Ford Fusion would have cost $3,000 dollars... I hit a deer going 64 mph... $7,000 worth of damage. A new radiator needed, new hood, new front valence, new right quarter panel and obviously new right front headlight housing and new airbag on the right side... The abs light came on and stayed on... I knew it was messes up or should have deployed and yet it didn't. It caused the car to be totalled.

That's what you have insurance for. Otherwise-I'm sure there is a Crown Vic out there calling your name......

 

[Gimpy1]

Glass has issues as well...............

Glass headlamps could never be molded to the complex shapes we have now, stop living in the past. Cars today are faster more efficent, safer, and more reliable.

 

[meep]

The OP asked what is different about the starters. Iirc there are a few differences, the main being that they are direct-drive instead of gear reduction. This allows the motor itself to run at a lower rpm which induces less wear. To compensate for the higher torque, they are wound with more “steps” for greater low rpm torque. this is also why the starters are a little quieter, as there’s less “going on” inside of them. Simpler, but a bit more robust, and designed for a few more duty cycles.

 

[tom slick]

I don’t notice any of the mechanics or parts guys here reporting how many starters they are selling. Plenty of folks reporting that the sky is falling though.

 

[2EHA]

The OP asked what is different about the starters. Iirc there are a few differences, the main being that they are direct-drive instead of gear reduction. This allows the motor itself to run at a lower rpm which induces less wear. To compensate for the higher torque, they are wound with more “steps” for greater low rpm torque. this is also why the starters are a little quieter, as there’s less “going on” inside of them. Simpler, but a bit more robust, and designed for a few more duty cycles.

Other way around.

Every manufacturer had fielded gear reduction starters by the end of the 90s.