Toilet shopping - regular vs pressure-assist

[alarmguy]

What makes me happy is that I don't have to clean up water coming over the rim of the bowl. Because when that happens, it's not just water. There are a lot of good choices out there, and you're right that one doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars just to get something that won't require a plunger every day.

And it's a shame that there are so many people with a negative impression of water saving toilets, because the new ones are actually better at flushing waste than old technology from 30-50 years ago where they thought that more water and a longer flushing time would push waste through a small trap. I have some experience with 90s era low flow toilets, and they basically don't do anything that putting an air bladder in the tank wouldn't do.

^^Exactly^^ !
You say it best,
The new ones are much better at flushing, the larger trap most likely a significant part of the reason. Feels like you can put a half roll of toilet paper in a $99 Lowes Aquasource Henshaw toilet and the darn thing wont clog. Amazing, quiet and fast flush.
Sometimes people see a reasonable price and think something more expensive will be better, yet the cost to produce them is much the same, no different then oil.
BTW this is the one I am talking about ... https://www.lowes.com/pd/AquaSource...2-Piece-Toilet-12-in-Rough-In-Size/1000340935

BTW - unless you are buying for style, this is one heck of a good looking toilet and have been selling this model forever. they sell tons of them.

 

[doitmyself]

In regards to alarmguy and others recommending house brand toilets, I have a hunch that the toilet scene is very similar to what's happening to lots of products, such as windshields. 20 years ago we relied on U.S. made name brands for quality. Things changed as companies started outsourcing and moving production out of the U.S.. There were quality control problems during this transition. Today, China owned manufacturing is catching up in quality control and this is why we can now buy "house brand" products that are working well. I mentioned windshields because I "have read" that Chinese manufacturing (including their giant U.S. factories now) of windshields has grown leaps and bounds in quality.

TOTO managed to retain consistent quality control during the transition while American Standard and Kohler floundered. Now the playing field has become more level, IMO.

Just a hunch.

 

[walterjay]

I haven't seen a problem, but maybe it's just me.

The weirdest thing I've seen is going on the road staying in hotels. Not sure why so many still have older toilets when they could easily buy newer ones in bulk and save a ton on water. They manage to maintain these things even though they haven't been sold for over 25 years. I've stayed in a newly remodeled hotel room where they replaced everything, and that one had a low flow toilet.

You can look up the superior glazing of the Toto toilet by googling Toto Cefiontect
I can't find the one for Kohler just yet.

And yes...I don't understand why many motels are not using water saving devices. They would pay for themselves in short order. It's a no brainer

 

[y_p_w]

In regards to alarmguy and others recommending house brand toilets, I have a hunch that the toilet scene is very similar to what's happening to lots of products, such as windshields. 20 years ago we relied on U.S. made name brands for quality. Things changed as companies started outsourcing and moving production out of the U.S.. There were quality control problems during this transition. Today, China owned manufacturing is catching up in quality control and this is why we can now buy "house brand" products that are working well. I mentioned windshields because I "have read" that Chinese manufacturing (including their giant U.S. factories now) of windshields has grown leaps and bounds in quality.

TOTO managed to retain consistent quality control during the transition while American Standard and Kohler floundered. Now the playing field has become more level, IMO.

Just a hunch.

I have a Fuyao replacement windshield and it's fine.

That being said, some of the house branded stuff is just weird. The Lowe's toilet installation videos I've seen show a lot of weird looking internal parts, although they're pretty standard and can be replaced. I see that most use WDI fill valves. I suppose they're OK, but I'd never heard of them before.

 

[PandaBear]

I haven't seen a problem, but maybe it's just me.

The weirdest thing I've seen is going on the road staying in hotels. Not sure why so many still have older toilets when they could easily buy newer ones in bulk and save a ton on water. They manage to maintain these things even though they haven't been sold for over 25 years. I've stayed in a newly remodeled hotel room where they replaced everything, and that one had a low flow toilet.

Water cost varies. I had a main burst in Feb and was fighting with the utility for a $1800 water bill! In the end they prove that they didn't make any money on water (someone in SoCal sue the municipal utility and won, changing how the entire California's municipal utility is calculated), just cost balanced. They showed me that it cost them $4 to buy 1 CCF of water from the Hetch Hetchy water system because of a seismic retrofit (100 year old aqua-duct not earthquake proof). So they cannot give me any discount more than moving me to an industrial / commercial cost basis.

Some coworker I know from elsewhere told me they only pay $10 a month!

So one note to everyone at least in California, if you have a PVC water main change it out now, before it burst and cost you 30x over a typical day within one night+morning.

 

[y_p_w]

You can look up the superior glazing of the Toto toilet by googling Toto Cefiontect
I can't find the one for Kohler just yet.

And yes...I don't understand why many motels are not using water saving devices. They would pay for themselves in short order. It's a no brainer

I was staying at a Fairfield Inn in Southern California. Everything seemed up to date including a remodeled bathroom and fixtures that looked less than a decade old. Flat screen TVs, newer beds, etc. Yet they still had maybe a five gallon flush toilet with an old float style fill valve. It was also a really slow fill. It look maybe 90 seconds to fill up. They would have easily saved the money in water over 5 years and could have touted that as a water saving thing. I've seen plenty of hotels have placards saying they encourage guests to save water by reusing towels/sheets that need to be washed, and that they use low flow shower heads, etc.

Addendum: American Standard calls their top glaze "EverClean". They say it's an antimicrobial glaze placed over their conventional glaze. Kohler just calls theirs "Kohler glaze".

How to Choose a Toilet | American Standard

With all the features, options, and configurations available, it can be tough to know how to choose the right toilet. American Standard's helpful guide will give you the information you need to make the right choice of toilet for your bathroom.

www.americanstandard-us.com

American Standard offers a wide range of toilets with our unique EverClean® Surface. It is an ultra-smooth glaze with antimicrobial properties which is applied on top of the conventional glaze and fired into all glazed surfaces of the toilet. It gives the toilet a super smooth, mirror-like finish - which stays cleaner because the soil has a harder time clinging to it. The EverClean® surface also inhibits the growth of stain and odor-causing bacteria, mold, and mildew on the surface.​

 

[y_p_w]

Water cost varies. I had a main burst in Feb and was fighting with the utility for a $1800 water bill! In the end they prove that they didn't make any money on water (someone in SoCal sue the municipal utility and won, changing how the entire California's municipal utility is calculated), just cost balanced. They showed me that it cost them $4 to buy 1 CCF of water from the Hetch Hetchy water system because of a seismic retrofit (100 year old aqua-duct not earthquake proof). So they cannot give me any discount more than moving me to an industrial / commercial cost basis.

Some coworker I know from elsewhere told me they only pay $10 a month!

So one note to everyone at least in California, if you have a PVC water main change it out now, before it burst and cost you 30x over a typical day within one night+morning.

Depends on the location. I know something about the city of Santa Clara, where the majority of city is well water, some is sourced from local surface water, and a small part bought from the Hatch Hetchy system. Who gets what depends on the location, but everyone pays the same price. The well water is horrible, but that makes it cheap. There are some well locations that are visible, such as one right at the Santa Clara Caltrain station parking lot.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[PandaBear]

Depends on the location. I know something about the city of Santa Clara, where the majority of city is well water, some is sourced from local surface water, and a small part bought from the Hatch Hetchy system. Who gets what depends on the location, but everyone pays the same price. The well water is horrible, but that makes it cheap. There are some well locations that are visible, such as one right at the Santa Clara Caltrain station parking lot.

In Sunnyvale they just told me a couple months ago, that they only use the well in emergency, despite the pamphlet told us that it is a blend depends on location. I guess it really depends or the well water is actually more expensive.

 

[y_p_w]

In Sunnyvale they just told me a couple months ago, that they only use the well in emergency, despite the pamphlet told us that it is a blend depends on location. I guess it really depends or the well water is actually more expensive.

Santa Clara is a little different. The source is purely dependent on the location. Certain area are blended, while others are sourced from either well water or Hetch Hetchy water.

Water Utility | City of Santa Clara

Sources available to the City include an extensive local underground aquifer and imported water supplies delivered by two wholesale water agencies: the Santa Clara Valley Water District (SCVWD) and the San Francisco Hetch Hetchysystem.​

​

The City operates 26 wells that tap the underground aquifers and make up about 62% of the City's potable water supply. A water recharge program administered by the SCVWD from local reservoirs and imported water enhances the dependability of the underground aquifer. The remaining water is supplied by water imported from the two wholesale water agencies.​

They specifically note that the aquifer is specifically recharged with some surface water. But that's after going through a ton of limestone.

 

[pezzy84]

So a toilet that was in an apartment I had years ago was called Niagara - its not pressure assist its I guess kind of vacuum assist. .8/GPF if you don't go for the dual flush models. This thing worked incredible the 2 years I lived there - never a single clog and double flushing was never a thing.
I am honestly considering this as a replacement for the current 1.5 in my condo - I retrofitted the 1.5 in my condo with a dual flush mechanism but it still uses a boatload of water even on the lowest setting for #1 flush.

Not a bad price for the original models (~$150 at Home Depot) and they are actually an attractive design (well as attractive as a toilet can be).

Niagara Toilets

 

[Oildudeny]

Keep it simple... I have heard of the pressure assist exploding. You can always check out the kohler aquapiston

 

[y_p_w]

So a toilet that was in an apartment I had years ago was called Niagara - its not pressure assist its I guess kind of vacuum assist. .8/GPF if you don't go for the dual flush models. This thing worked incredible the 2 years I lived there - never a single clog and double flushing was never a thing.
I am honestly considering this as a replacement for the current 1.5 in my condo - I retrofitted the 1.5 in my condo with a dual flush mechanism but it still uses a boatload of water even on the lowest setting for #1 flush.

Not a bad price for the original models (~$150 at Home Depot) and they are actually an attractive design (well as attractive as a toilet can be).

Niagara Toilets

That's Niagara Conservation. Their specialty is low flow everything. When I moved into my current house, the shower had a Niagara shower head that was great. It was rated for 3.0 gallons/minute max, but it had a mechanism that allowed a reduction in flow down to a drip. And I could move the switch to the point where it would mist and still be good enough at maybe .75 gpm. It's still in great shape (chrome plated brass), but I had to maintain it occasionally. Sometimes little rocks in the water line would come in and block the holes. Another problem was the pivoting head would pivot at the base and needed a special washer designed to seal a ball head. I couldn't find a replacement washer anywhere. At a hardware store someone recommended just jamming two O-rings in there and tightening it. The washer was worn and I couldn't find a replacement part anywhere. I did find some similar shower heads (complete with a washer) but none were quite like this one.

 

[nthach]

I’d stick to a gravity American Standard or Toto - they perfected the art of low-volume flushing. The pressure-assist toilets are flawed from the start, Sloan had the right idea with emulating the powerful flush of a flushometer-based toilet in residential settings. Too many lawsuits and insurance claims killed that. Also, keep in mind low-flow toilets only work well in modern tract homes or buildings with ABS or modern cast iron no-hub DVW pipe with new sewer laterals. A big reason why low-flow toilets don’t do well is the waste piping. Older homes use hub & spigot waste pipes and terracotta/iron sewer laterals that have eroded away.

At my parent’s place, there’s a 15 year old American Standard Champion 1st gen. It was retrofitted to the new flapper-based flush valve as part of a warranty extension. But it has been trouble free besides that. I replaced a Kohler with a AS Cadet 3, also trouble free. The master bathroom has one of the first 1.28gpf toilets on the market, a Toto Eco Drake. Only the full valve had to be replaced but out of annoyance than problem. I recently installed a AS Champion for the parent’s neighbors. It’ll provide years of no problem service. At the apartment, I’ll keep the 1.6gpf Mansfield - ideally a 3.5gpf toilet should have been used due to ancient pipes, I’ll let the landlord worry about that.

 

[y_p_w]

I’d stick to a gravity American Standard or Toto - they perfected the art of low-volume flushing. The pressure-assist toilets are flawed from the start, Sloan had the right idea with emulating the powerful flush of a flushometer-based toilet in residential settings. Too many lawsuits and insurance claims killed that. Also, keep in mind low-flow toilets only work well in modern tract homes or buildings with ABS or modern cast iron no-hub DVW pipe with new sewer laterals. A big reason why low-flow toilets don’t do well is the waste piping. Older homes use hub & spigot waste pipes and terracotta/iron sewer laterals that have eroded away.

At my parent’s place, there’s a 15 year old American Standard Champion 1st gen. It was retrofitted to the new flapper-based flush valve as part of a warranty extension. But it has been trouble free besides that. I replaced a Kohler with a AS Cadet 3, also trouble free. The master bathroom has one of the first 1.28gpf toilets on the market, a Toto Eco Drake. Only the full valve had to be replaced but out of annoyance than problem. I recently installed a AS Champion for the parent’s neighbors. It’ll provide years of no problem service. At the apartment, I’ll keep the 1.6gpf Mansfield - ideally a 3.5gpf toilet should have been used due to ancient pipes, I’ll let the landlord worry about that.

I have read some reviews where it was noted that performance varied depending on the flush valve/flapper combination. American Standard seems to use a variety of different parts in the Cadet 3. The Fluidmaster 540A has been solid for me, other than a brief period of time where it seemed to leak in the middle of the night. I'd hear the fill valve making noise for a few seconds as it topped off the tank. I just cleaned off the silicone seal and rotated it a little bit and it's been years since there's been a problem. That thing also doesn't seem to degrade in any way. The rigid flapper hasn't discolored in over 8 years of being submerged in water with chloramine. It hasn't cracked at all. It doesn't even look like the silicone seal is "seated" with no depression where it sits against the flush valve.

I would compare that to the Korky/Lavelle (or Kohler OEM parts likely made by Lavelle) using their red "Chlorazine" material, which seems to last fairly long. That noticeably discolors, although part of it might have been automatic toilet cleaning tabs. It will start pitting where the rubber meets the flush valve. It also gets harder while partially rotting away.

If it has to be replaced, I don't believe the universal soft flappers are the way to go. The rigid flappers are all adjustable and they're designed to shut close faster or slower based on the dial setting with the little float thingy. Mine came on the lowest setting which I believe is designed specifically to achieve 1.28 gpf with this specific tank design. When it closes there's still about 2 inches of water above the bottom height of the flush valve.

 

[mclasser]

UPDATE: So, I went to HD intent on getting the AS Cadet 3 but instead ended up buying the Kohler Elmbrook 1.28 GPF. The Kohler has a boxier tank and squared off base which looks great in my bathroom. The AS looked cheaper in comparison (price was also $30 less). The bigger tank also covers
up a patch of old crusty wallpaper & paint behind it, saving me some paint work. The smaller tank AS likely wouldn't have covered it up. The Kohler flushes great and refills the tank so fast. The Aquapiston is an interesting design and appears to work well.

After installing this toilet, I got bit by the 'water-saving bug.' The two other toilets in my house are the original 1987 Kohler Wellworths and from what I could tell, still had the original flappers. These toilets still look & function great so I'm not ready to replace them yet, but want to make them more efficient. To do this, I got some awesome Fluidmaster adjustable flapper valves. It took me about 30 min of fiddling around with the different numbers to dial in the best flush with the least water consumption. Now, I'm conserving an extra 1.5 in of water in the tank after every flush. Not sure how much volume this translates to but the tanks fill a lot faster now since less water is emptied out.

Looking forward to lower water bills after all this tinkering around!

 

[vwmaniaman]

I have an old American Standard 5 gallon model that i rebuilt with new parts. It has never needed a plunge. Our sewer is 150 feet from the house so I am not shy about flushes. The extra flow keeps the long pipe from clogging. Lived here 12 years and nothing has plugged up.

 

[y_p_w]

UPDATE: So, I went to HD intent on getting the AS Cadet 3 but instead ended up buying the Kohler Elmbrook 1.28 GPF. The Kohler has a boxier tank and squared off base which looks great in my bathroom. The AS looked cheaper in comparison (price was also $30 less). The bigger tank also covers
up a patch of old crusty wallpaper & paint behind it, saving me some paint work. The smaller tank AS likely wouldn't have covered it up. The Kohler flushes great and refills the tank so fast. The Aquapiston is an interesting design and appears to work well.

After installing this toilet, I got bit by the 'water-saving bug.' The two other toilets in my house are the original 1987 Kohler Wellworths and from what I could tell, still had the original flappers. These toilets still look & function great so I'm not ready to replace them yet, but want to make them more efficient. To do this, I got some awesome Fluidmaster adjustable flapper valves. It took me about 30 min of fiddling around with the different numbers to dial in the best flush with the least water consumption. Now, I'm conserving an extra 1.5 in of water in the tank after every flush. Not sure how much volume this translates to but the tanks fill a lot faster now since less water is emptied out.

Looking forward to lower water bills after all this tinkering around!

Are these Kohler Wellworths the ones that uses the old fashioned float bulb style fill valve, where the valve shuts when the float rises to a certain height? One way to reduce water use in older toilets was to fill up the toilet with something like bottles or bricks.

The new one you got uses Kohler's AquaPiston system with a sleeve that pops up rather than a flapper. The fill valve looks like a Fluidmaster 400A with a yellow cap. I remember overpaying for Kohler's version of a 400A for one low flow toilet. It had a special green cap but otherwise looked like a 400A.



HD has the repair kit.

KOHLER AquaPiston Repair Kit for Flush Valve GP1229656 - The Home Depot

Protect the warranty on KOHLER products, always look for the KOHLER GENUINE PARTS logo. KOHLER GENUINE PARTS are designed by KOHLER engineers to maintain original product performance and promote product

www.homedepot.com

So how's it working? Does it sound different?

 

[y_p_w]

I have an old American Standard 5 gallon model that i rebuilt with new parts. It has never needed a plunge. Our sewer is 150 feet from the house so I am not shy about flushes. The extra flow keeps the long pipe from clogging. Lived here 12 years and nothing has plugged up.

I saw that noted with one of the main line cleaners I got. They claim that low flow toilets have resulted in some sewer lines not getting adequate water to clear properly and thus they recommend the treatment to keep it from clogging.

However, when I moved into my current house I had problem with a (pre American Standard) Standard branded toilet. That thing was maybe 1958 and had about a 5.5 gallon tank. That thing got plugged up often. And the tank had more water than the bowl could hold, so you can imagine what happened with it when it was plugged up.

 

[mclasser]

Welp, I've only had the toilet for a few days and am getting a hissing noise after each flush. I opened the tank lid and there's water dripping down the top side of the fill valve near the nipple-tube junction. The tube is fully inserted so that's not the issue. Toilet still flushes great despite the leak.

I'm going to reach out to Kohler customer service and see what they say.

 

[DallasTexas]

Another vote on Cadet 3 ; a must have if you want to get rid of the stuff in a hurry (like Sheriff knocking on the door). Lol