Toilet shopping - regular vs pressure-assist

[doitmyself]

Already mentioned above by ypw, at the Terry Love forum the three toilets I see recommended most often are Toto (various models), AS Cadet 3, and Kohler Welworth. Site owner Terry is very biased towards Toto, claiming that they have maintained better quality control over the past years when other companies changed manufacturing to reduce costs. Just opinion here.

Way too long ago to matter, the Cadet 3 I bought from Home Depot had to be returned because the bowl was cast WAY out of level (more than I wanted to shim). I opened 5 boxes to get one that sat reasonably level. YMMV. I don't know if these claims that big box stores get the lesser quality product vs. plumbing supply outfits are legitimate. It is tough for me to believe.

Today's toilets flush so well that I cannot see any justification for a more complicated pressure assist.

 

[y_p_w]

Another upvote for the Cadet 3.
I've installed a few in my house and another at my mother's.
They will flush nearly anything that is reasonable and do it the first time. I don't think I've ever had to take a plunger to one of them.

The fact that they're $120 at HD is icing on the cake.

I'll just say that every tool has its limits. I speak from experience.

 

[Wolf359]

I've installed many Cadet 3 in my rentals. Never had a problem with them from the stores. A friend of mine just did his with one. They're fine. Only issue I ran into is with the cheap Glacier Bay toilets. Knew someone who installed three in his units and one of them ran out of the box. The whole lower quality thing is BS. Just theory and no proof, they just say that to get you to buy at the more expensive places. But there's not two factory lines that make good stuff and bad stuff, it's all one factory line. Costs more to set up two lines.

 

[y_p_w]

Already mentioned above by ypw, at the Terry Love forum the three toilets I see recommended most often are Toto (various models), AS Cadet 3, and Kohler Welworth. Site owner Terry is very biased towards Toto, claiming that they have maintained better quality control over the past years when other companies changed manufacturing to reduce costs. Just opinion here.

Way too long ago to matter, the Cadet 3 I bought from Home Depot had to be returned because the bowl was cast WAY out of level (more than I wanted to shim). I opened 5 boxes to get one that sat reasonably level. YMMV. I don't know if these claims that big box stores get the lesser quality product vs. plumbing supply outfits are legitimate. It is tough for me to believe.

Today's toilets flush so well that I cannot see any justification for a more complicated pressure assist.

I get why a business without access to a high pressure water line might go with a pressure assist toilet rather than a gravity toilet. It's time saved where an employee doesn't have to take time to clean it out and take a bathroom/stall out of service.

Flushometers have their own problems too. I've ended up taking a screwdriver to shut one off at the office toilet. Once the ball valve gets stuck open, it's not going to close until the water flow is shut off. However, I've never heard of one exploding in a bathroom. They might start shooting water everywhere though.

And I messed up with the name - it's the Kohler Wellworth. Back when I was considering a new toilet, I was looking only at my water utility's list of rebate eligible toilets. The cheapest one I could find (back in 2012) was a Home Depot Glacier Bay house brand. However, they didn't list it being in stock at any store near me and back then the shipping to my home would have been something like $75. They listed several Kohler models, with the Cimmaron being the easiest to find. However, I couldn't find it as a two piece - just bowl and tank sold separately. It was also tougher because it required an exact pair to be eligible for the rebate.

As far as Terry Love's cheerleading for Toto, it's pretty obvious when he got a Toto logo embroidered on his jacket.

Terry Love's Consumer toilet reports, a report and reviews on toilets

Terry Love's Consumer toilet reports. Save time and money. Find out which toilets are best buys. Complete reviews

terrylove.com

 

[y_p_w]

I've installed many Cadet 3 in my rentals. Never had a problem with them from the stores. A friend of mine just did his with one. They're fine. Only issue I ran into is with the cheap Glacier Bay toilets. Knew someone who installed three in his units and one of them ran out of the box. The whole lower quality thing is BS. Just theory and no proof, they just say that to get you to buy at the more expensive places. But there's not two factory lines that make good stuff and bad stuff, it's all one factory line. Costs more to set up two lines.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they have multiple lines making different quality by design. The claim is that they bin sort them during quality control, and then reserve the most uniformly graded pieces for plumbing supply houses and the lowest graded pieces for the specials sold at Home Depot or Lowe's. I don't necessarily buy it though. Who really wants to be known for selling a lower quality product and attach the same name to it?

In my industry they do "bin sort" electronic parts based on speed. There are always minor variations that might affect whether or not a part can operate at maybe 2.5 vs 2.2 GHz. I think a lot of toilets can be sorted using laser measurements.

 

[doitmyself]

That review is somewhat dated and he admits it needing updating. I don't worship him by any means and his bias is obvious. I DO notice recently that he has relaxed his bias and often see him recommending the Cadet 3 and Wellworth (and others) quite often in toilet decision threads (while still tossing in his Toto bias too).

 

[y_p_w]

That review is somewhat dated and he admits it needing updating. I don't worship him by any means and his bias is obvious. I DO notice recently that he has relaxed his bias and often see him recommending the Cadet 3 and Wellworth (and others) quite often in toilet decision threads (while still tossing in his Toto bias too).

Yeah. I will say he's very generous with his time and very knowledgeable about pluming in general. He's a big Toto fan (and I will say they make very good stuff) as well as a proponent of Bio-Clean. Nothing wrong with a guy having his favorites, but at least he doesn't trash Toto's competitors.

 

[PandaBear]

I heard about some of those exploding; not too confidence-inspiring! There's also the noise you mentioned. My master bath is right next to the bedroom and I don't want late night commode sessions drawing a lot of attention

I'm leaning towards the Cadet 3 now, on sale at HD for $159. Have you guys encountered QC issues with toilets from big box stores? Plumbing forums say manufacturers often send their factory seconds there. Particularly with the Cadet 3, you may get wobbly bowls, poor finishing and cracks. Some guys had to go back several times before they got a non-defective one.

I have been installing a lot of toilets (rental that includes water), and the box store ones are fine. Just don't get the cheapest one and check for reviews. You can always take a look before installing and return if they don't look right.

I've certainly heard of plumbers claiming that there were different "grades" where they might use the lowest grade as the specials and highest grade only available at plumbing supply businesses.

It is not a matter of if but a matter of "are they that far apart". There are different customers who will pay more because they can tell the difference, pay extra, or have enough volume that they will disqualify you if they are not meeting the passing percentage. If you can tell the difference just go buy from a plumbing supply store, but if not (i.e. due to cosmetic) I'd just wait for the sales at box stores. So far all the toilets I've installed neither my family nor my tenants complained, so I guess they are "good enough".

It is a toilet, and it is also a porcelain, and your standard will depends on if you treat it as a toilet or a fine china.

 

[PandaBear]

I've installed many Cadet 3 in my rentals. Never had a problem with them from the stores. A friend of mine just did his with one. They're fine. Only issue I ran into is with the cheap Glacier Bay toilets. Knew someone who installed three in his units and one of them ran out of the box. The whole lower quality thing is BS. Just theory and no proof, they just say that to get you to buy at the more expensive places. But there's not two factory lines that make good stuff and bad stuff, it's all one factory line. Costs more to set up two lines.

It depends on what you mean by factory line. When I was checking out toilet a couple years back the good and bad stuff have similar dimensions and probably clay, but coatings are different, and some hardwares are different (i.e. the flushing valve handle, the plastic connection, etc). Maybe similar to how a car of the same shape can be painted with different number of coats or different grade of plastic interiors while sharing the same power train and unibody.

Based on my shower head and faucets observation, GB are definitely designed to be performing ok but quality wise aren't the same in the "feel" or connection / coupling side. It may be good enough and last but they do look and feel cheap compare to a name brand side by side.

 

[y_p_w]

It depends on what you mean by factory line. When I was checking out toilet a couple years back the good and bad stuff have similar dimensions and probably clay, but coatings are different, and some hardwares are different (i.e. the flushing valve handle, the plastic connection, etc). Maybe similar to how a car of the same shape can be painted with different number of coats or different grade of plastic interiors while sharing the same power train and unibody.

Based on my shower head and faucets observation, GB are definitely designed to be performing ok but quality wise aren't the same in the "feel" or connection / coupling side. It may be good enough and last but they do look and feel cheap compare to a name brand side by side.

Well - for the most part the hardware is pretty simple and not really that much of the cost. If you're buying an American Standard flush lever, it's really just one part. The internals are usually just common Fluidmaster or Lavelle parts. I helped out with a low profile toilet that used funky parts. Still made by Fluidmaster but one was a completely unique part, and another was actually a 400A with a specific cap. Honestly I probably could have just dropped in a standard 400A and it would have worked just fine.

Besides all that - if you really insist, it's not that hard to just spend $10-12 on a new part. I understand that some who like the Korky QuietFill will substitute that immediately. A plumber could buy a case of those and have them ready. Changing out a flush valve is a little more involved. I've always preferred to use a direct drop in flapper, but fortunately I've never had a flush valve go bad. That's a lot more involved than replacing a fill valve (I've done a few of those) or a flapper.

 

[sloinker]

I replaced all my toilet's with American Standard extra height and elongated bowls. They supposedly can flush a wheelbarrow full of ping pong balls without having an issue. I like ours and they have worked great. The original low water toilets did not work very well.

 

[alarmguy]

Agree with the comments above.
This isnt about money for me. I could care less if its $350 or $100.
If you like the style, the Lowes $100 toilet is fantastic. Its Quiet, flushes great, has the same 3Inch flush valve as the others. Also highly rated in Consumer Reports if that matters to you.
I replaced two toilets in the last couple years from the toilets installed by the builder and hands down, Im very impressed with the Lowes model over the other, I plan on replacing another 3rd toilet with the Lowes as well. Looks pretty darn good to me too.
Click here for the one I am talking about

Other then that, its no longer about price, meaning spending much more doesn't mean something will be better, now its more pick out your style and buy what you want and at the same time, paying more for better styling you may have to give up some performance over a less expensive one like the $100 lowes.

 

[Aredeeem]

A dab of Vaseline spread around the silicone gasket will restore the seal if you’re getting phantom re-fills. Bothersome at night when the house is quiet.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I’ll bet Archie Bunker wanted a pressure assisted toilet to make his sound even louder. Editors note: only funny if you’ve watched the All in the Family sitcoms in the 70’s.

 

[y_p_w]

Agree with the comments above.
This isnt about money for me. I could care less if its $350 or $100.
If you like the style, the Lowes $100 toilet is fantastic. Its Quiet, flushes great, has the same 3Inch flush valve as the others. Also highly rated in Consumer Reports if that matters to you.
I replaced two toilets in the last couple years from the toilets installed by the builder and hands down, Im very impressed with the Lowes model over the other, I plan on replacing another 3rd toilet with the Lowes as well. Looks pretty darn good to me too.
Click here for the one I am talking about

Other then that, its no longer about price, meaning spending much more doesn't mean something will be better, now its more pick out your style and buy what you want and at the same time, paying more for better styling you may have to give up some performance over a less expensive one like the $100 lowes.

I don't know if it's really worth it for a house brand. This one is $120 right now. It's been around for at least a decade with the parts still available and relatively easy to find.

American Standard Cadet 3 Two-Piece 1.28 GPF Single Flush Round Chair Height Toilet with Slow-Close Seat in White 3377128ST.020 - The Home Depot

The Cadet 3 Right Height Round-Front Toilet from American Standard is a high-efficiency, ultra-low consumption toilet that uses 20% less water than conventional toilets without sacrificing performance.

www.homedepot.com

 

[alarmguy]

I don't know if it's really worth it for a house brand. This one is $120 right now. It's been around for at least a decade with the parts still available and relatively easy to find.

American Standard Cadet 3 Two-Piece 1.28 GPF Single Flush Round Chair Height Toilet with Slow-Close Seat in White 3377128ST.020 - The Home Depot

The Cadet 3 Right Height Round-Front Toilet from American Standard is a high-efficiency, ultra-low consumption toilet that uses 20% less water than conventional toilets without sacrificing performance.

www.homedepot.com

For me it wasn’t so much the price, it was also consumer reports that gave it a high rating among much more expensive toilets.
Parts are all interchangeable as well.
With that said it’s a toilet and we buy what makes us happy
Another thing is we did not want a round bowl, The majority of them are the elongated style.

 

[y_p_w]

For me it wasn’t so much the price, it was also consumer reports that gave it a high rating among much more expensive toilets.
Parts are all interchangeable as well.
With that said it’s a toilet and we buy what makes us happy
Another thing is we did not want a round bowl, The majority of them are the elongated style.

What makes me happy is that I don't have to clean up water coming over the rim of the bowl. Because when that happens, it's not just water. There are a lot of good choices out there, and you're right that one doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars just to get something that won't require a plunger every day.

And it's a shame that there are so many people with a negative impression of water saving toilets, because the new ones are actually better at flushing waste than old technology from 30-50 years ago where they thought that more water and a longer flushing time would push waste through a small trap. I have some experience with 90s era low flow toilets, and they basically don't do anything that putting an air bladder in the tank wouldn't do.

 

[walterjay]

American Standard is a good flushing toilet, however, it is a dirtier toilet than the Toto or Kohler. The Kohler and Toto have a better glaze which resists build up. If you looked at the finishes under a microscope you would see the better smoother, slicker glazing over the AS. This is one area that is mostly overlooked when considering a toilet. I changed out a Kohler in my master bath and installed an American Standard dual flush toilet as it was given to me. I regret the change out. Having to clean it much more often than the Kohler.

 

[y_p_w]

American Standard is a good flushing toilet, however, it is a dirtier toilet than the Toto or Kohler. The Kohler and Toto have a better glaze which resists build up. If you looked at the finishes under a microscope you would see the better smoother, slicker glazing over the AS. This is one area that is mostly overlooked when considering a toilet. I changed out a Kohler in my master bath and installed an American Standard dual flush toilet as it was given to me. I regret the change out. Having to clean it much more often than the Kohler.

I haven't seen a problem, but maybe it's just me.

The weirdest thing I've seen is going on the road staying in hotels. Not sure why so many still have older toilets when they could easily buy newer ones in bulk and save a ton on water. They manage to maintain these things even though they haven't been sold for over 25 years. I've stayed in a newly remodeled hotel room where they replaced everything, and that one had a low flow toilet.

 

[greenjp]

I demand to see microscope photos of the toilet glazes discussed above! Ha seriously where was that info sourced?

Yesterday I bought a "Lowes Exclusive" garbage disposal. An Insinkerator Badger 15SS. A 3/4 hp version of the Badger line but with the stainless steel grinding bits from the higher level models and a 6 year warranty. So sort of a tweener between the lower and higher end models. I am pretty sure it was built to spec but not to any lower quality standard.

jeff