Toilet shopping - regular vs pressure-assist

Welp, I've only had the toilet for a few days and am getting a hissing noise after each flush. I opened the tank lid and there's water dripping down the top side of the fill valve near the nipple-tube junction. The tube is fully inserted so that's not the issue. Toilet still flushes great despite the leak.

I'm going to reach out to Kohler customer service and see what they say.

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That's a variation of the Fluidmaster 400A, which is probably the most common fill valve in the US. I thought that there's normally a clamp on the end of the fill tube that clamps it around the fitting. As long as it's stopping, you're not wasting water since it's just going into the tank.

If you really need to, these are really easy to fix with a universal fill valve. There's generally nothing terribly special about most OEM fill valves, although I've seen a few weird ones for low flow toilets.
 
Another vote on Cadet 3 ; a must have if you want to get rid of the stuff in a hurry (like Sheriff knocking on the door). Lol

There are a few variations on the Cadet 3, other than just the bowl and color. Sometimes they use different parts, although the two piece design is easy to swap out.

Sometimes when you look up Cadet 3, there's also a different version that comes up. It has a concealed trap and is boxy looking. It's still 2 piece, but the mating area is much wider.


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That's a variation of the Fluidmaster 400A, which is probably the most common fill valve in the US. I thought that there's normally a clamp on the end of the fill tube that clamps it around the fitting. As long as it's stopping, you're not wasting water since it's just going into the tank.

If you really need to, these are really easy to fix with a universal fill valve. There's generally nothing terribly special about most OEM fill valves, although I've seen a few weird ones for low flow toilets.
I spoke to a nice lady at Kohler who said they'll be mailing me a new fill valve under warranty :)

You're right about the OE part basically being a Fluidmaster 400A tweaked to Kohler's "silent fill" specs. I tracked down the actual OE part on Amazon and a lot of people said they tried the 400A first but found it to be noisier.

I'll report back when the new fill valve comes in.
 
I spoke to a nice lady at Kohler who said they'll be mailing me a new fill valve under warranty :)

You're right about the OE part basically being a Fluidmaster 400A tweaked to Kohler's "silent fill" specs. I tracked down the actual OE part on Amazon and a lot of people said they tried the 400A first but found it to be noisier.

I'll report back when the new fill valve comes in.

That might be a variation on the PerforMAX version of the 400A.

If it doesn't work out, the Korky QuietFill Platinum is pretty good. I've installed one of them when helping out my dad. That's a little different in that it's a little bit faster than the base model QuietFill, and it comes with a dial to adjust the bowl fill. I don't think Kohler has that. Fluidmater includes a roller clamp in the PerforMAX and also sells it separately. Kohler has these color coded plastic flow restrictors.


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Well - I had a near miss with the our American Standard Cadet 3 yesterday. I was in the bathroom with my wife, who was cleaning up stuff with TP around the bathroom and she tossed about 5 small wads that hit the bottom of the bowl immediately. I knew it was going to be a problem and tried to stop her flushing it but she pulled the lever down. And not normally, but a quick jerk down on the handle where she let go quickly where it popped up quickly. I saw the bowl get plugged and it wouldn't stop going higher. I pulled the tank cover and stopped it.

What seems to have happened was that with the quick motion, the chain just popped up and got caught on the lever arm. Then the flapper was held up and it was putting water in the bowl as fast as the fill valve could put out water. But the exact placement of all that TP jammed the trap. I had to get out the plunger, but it wasn't too bad. I don't know if this is typical, but it was a kind of the perfect storm where it was close to leaking over the bowl. I told my wife not to flush like that. If she had done that without the bowl being plugged up, it would have just kept on leaking into the bowl.
 
I guess with all this discussion I wanted to do a little bit of maintenance. Maybe learn how to adjust a Fluidmaster 540A flapper if maybe I wanted a little bit more water in my flush. Since I've never bought a replacement flapper, I don't have any instructions. I don't recall the instructions with the toilet had anything since they're already set for 1.28 gpf.

American Standard has this video, but it doesn't really show anything:



Fluidmaster's video doesn't show it until the ball has already been popped out.



This may be the best video that shows how to adjust it. There are two little bumps that lock the little dome into the flapper. Just pressing into the bumps is how one can pull it out. It's easy once you figure it out. Then it can be rotated to the desired setting. It doesn't change the height of the dome. What it seems to do is create a smaller opening where air comes out after passing through the hole in the bottom of the dome. At the maximum setting (10) it looks like the hole is completely closed off. I guess that's the maximum drag as it closes, while at 0 it's got the biggest opening when it will drop faster.

 
Recently installed an American Standard Champion 1.28gpf. So far, so good. Works much better than the '90s vintage 1.6gpf unit it replaced...

As far as the supposed quality issue in toilets from plumbing houses versus big box, the big thing I saw was the the big box places get unique packages - that have everything like wax rings, mountig bolts, seats, etc. The plumbing houses that was pretty much a la cart.

For the few times I install a toilet, I've not had issues with big box quality (when buying American Standard or Kohler - not house brands...)
 
Recently installed an American Standard Champion 1.28gpf. So far, so good. Works much better than the '90s vintage 1.6gpf unit it replaced...

As far as the supposed quality issue in toilets from plumbing houses versus big box, the big thing I saw was the the big box places get unique packages - that have everything like wax rings, mountig bolts, seats, etc. The plumbing houses that was pretty much a la cart.

For the few times I install a toilet, I've not had issues with big box quality (when buying American Standard or Kohler - not house brands...)

As noted, the Champion 4 uses a rather unique flush mechanism. Should work well, but replacement parts are a little harder to find.

Yeah - a lot of the plumbing supply houses have different selections. Mostly separate bowls and tanks. Often without a seat. But you can order those from HD or Lowe's if you really want them. I suppose it might be possible to mix and match colors too. Not all the kits that the big home improvement stores have contain a wax ring though. When I had mine installed, a plumber did the installation, and he brought a wax ring not knowing that we would have one in the box. I think he had plenty of them in his van because it's such a common part to use.

There might be a few things that are different, although it may not be unique to just big box stores. American Standard has a nickel-plated metal flush handle. It comes in the more expensive toilets, like the Cadet 3 with the boxy tank and wider mounting base at the bowl. The one I've got has a metal-look plastic handle. I haven't seen a problem with mine, but I've seen some of these where the metal-look coating starts to peel off. There's also something that feels better with a piece of real metal.


Also with the OP's question (even though he already bought a toilet) there is an advantage to press flushing when it comes to keeping the bowl cleaner. I won't get too graphic, but soft waste can often stay on the surface of the bowl, and a gravity flush might not get that clean. A shot of pressure might blast that into the trap.
 
Another Update: I installed the new fill valve from Kohler and all is well again. Only difference is the the factory one had a yellow top while this one is red. I It also came with different colored flow restrictors. The factory one was black so that's the one I used.

On a different note: Perhaps I'm just a more.... heavy duty user.... but does anyone notice that these low flow toilets leave more stuff stuck to the bowl? A single flick of the flush handle works fine for #1 but leaves streaks behind for #2. I find my #2 requires holding down the flush handle longer so I get a more forceful flush by emptying out the tank. This defeats the whole 'water saver' thing, at least when it comes to #2. If this is just the nature of the beast with these low flow toilets, I'm fine with it. In a given day, toilets are mainly used for #1, where only 1.28 gpf are being used.

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Another Update: I installed the new fill valve from Kohler and all is well again. Only difference is the the factory one had a yellow top while this one is red. I It also came with different colored flow restrictors. The factory one was black so that's the one I used.

On a different note: Perhaps I'm just a more.... heavy duty user.... but does anyone notice that these low flow toilets leave more stuff stuck to the bowl? A single flick of the flush handle works fine for #1 but leaves streaks behind for #2. I find my #2 requires holding down the flush handle longer so I get a more forceful flush by emptying out the tank. This defeats the whole 'water saver' thing, at least when it comes to #2. If this is just the nature of the beast with these low flow toilets, I'm fine with it. In a given day, toilets are mainly used for #1, where only 1.28 gpf are being used.

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I think I had some sort of link to that earlier. So that's the one Kohler sent to you to deal with the leaky fill valve? They're all pretty much universal for almost any toilet (save maybe low profiles ones where it can't shorten enough), but just meant for product differentiation.

This is yet another variation on the Fluidmaster 400. I've seen one sold as an OEM Kohler part with a green cap. The float is 100% identical on anything that looks like it. It probably says "Fluidmaster/400 MODEL/ANTI-SIPHON" on the float. I just replaced my original 400A with a 400H PerforMAX. It fills a little bit faster, has this wide adjustment knob, and uses a dial that gates the bowl fill.

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After taking out the original, I learned how to replace the seal. Your original problem could have been with a defective seal. The seal can get worn, or sometime it's just sand or other stuff messing with the seal, where it can be removed, cleaned, and placed back. It's a $3-4 part at a home improvement or hardware store. You need to make sure the lever is all the way up on the cap, and then the cap just twists off counteclockwise. Some of the replacement caps (with a new seal) are available. It's easier to do with with the lever separated from the adjustment screw.

Amazon has it for $1.60 right now:


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The bowl fill flow restrictors work differently than roller clamps or dial gates. The instructions for adjustment are to make sure the bowl is filled at its maximum (where any more water will just flow out the trap) and then mark the water line with some tape or a dry erase marker. Then flush and see if it fills up to the top. The bowl level is important for a better flush. If it doesn't fill up to the maximum, move to less restriction. That's easy with a dial, a little harder with a roller clamp, and only in discrete levels with those little restrictors that clip on. There may not really be a way to perfect adjust that for any specific toilet because how it works depends a lot on little things like water pressure. With an unrestricted tube, it will definitely get it to the top of the bowl fill line, but then it wastes a certain amount of water going straight into the trap.

Another thing you might consider (if you didn't already) is to change your connector line. After a while they can get corroded and the internal hose worn. Most have a stainless steel braid covering to protect the line, but it's usually just a plastic hose underneath that can go bad. Mine old one has corrosion including rust on the steel ends and a green copper corrosion on the brass nut. I just got a Fluidmaster Click Seal line, which has a torque wrench style click stop. I just kept on tightening it (seemed even too tight) until it just snapped and stopped at a maximum set torque. I thought I was going to crack the plastic shank on the fill valve, but apparently it was OK. There are different supply valve fittings too, so that has to be chosen correctly (I chose the 3/8" compression when I needed 1/2" FIP).

As for cleaning - that's just a problem with these low flow toilets. Even a 5 gallon flush might not do it much better. I had problems with waste sticking to the bowl in a hotel room that had an older toilet. Only a pressure assist is likely to help, and those things scare me. What actually helps is just letting it sit where the waste soaks in water, where it should flush away if it's soaked long enough.
 
One little thing. Just make sure that after you adjust it for height that the ring is securely snapped in to lock in the adjustment. I though I had it in place, but all of a sudden I was having problems with the shutoff. It would give a little sound at the end. Then I found out that it was filling to the height of the overflow when I'd previously set it for a little over 1/2" below. The ring was no longer down and the cap was actually above the height of the bowl when I'm pretty sure that it was slightly below the top when I installed it. I didn't have to take it out to readjust it, but I made sure that the ring was all the way down.
 
One little thing. Just make sure that after you adjust it for height that the ring is securely snapped in to lock in the adjustment. I though I had it in place, but all of a sudden I was having problems with the shutoff. It would give a little sound at the end. Then I found out that it was filling to the height of the overflow when I'd previously set it for a little over 1/2" below. The ring was no longer down and the cap was actually above the height of the bowl when I'm pretty sure that it was slightly below the top when I installed it. I didn't have to take it out to readjust it, but I made sure that the ring was all the way down.

Just wanted to clarify that the cap had moved to above the top of the tank. I think it stopped at the lid, which is a little bit less than an inch. My guess is that without the ring locked in place, the pressure started pushing up the mechanism until it could go no further.
 
That might be a variation on the PerforMAX version of the 400A.

If it doesn't work out, the Korky QuietFill Platinum is pretty good. I've installed one of them when helping out my dad. That's a little different in that it's a little bit faster than the base model QuietFill, and it comes with a dial to adjust the bowl fill. I don't think Kohler has that. Fluidmater includes a roller clamp in the PerforMAX and also sells it separately. Kohler has these color coded plastic flow restrictors.


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I just decided to swap in my old pinch roller fill tube that I used on a 400A (since replaced with a 400H) into another (stock) Cadet 3 toilet. When I pulled out the stock fill tube I noticed there was one of those little restrictor plugs in there - the green one (13%) on the right. I didn't notice anything like it before when I pulled out the bowl fill tube on our other Cadet 3. There might not have been one or maybe it got stuck to the fill tube (not sure where that fill tube is now) when I removed it.

I'm still not sure how these are supposed to work when they're not tested in the actual setup. I thought that the bowl fill to tank fill ratio is highly dependent on things like individual water pressure and flow rate of the supply line. I thought that they would come with a full set that could be tested under real conditions to see what works to fill to the bowl line without overfilling. Also - since this was all stock American Standard, it doesn't look like those restrictor plugs are exclusive to Kohler.
 
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